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View Poll Results: Next state to leave the South?
Virginia 37 48.05%
North Carolina 6 7.79%
Georgia 4 5.19%
Florida 20 25.97%
Texas 15 19.48%
Kentucky 2 2.60%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 08-28-2014, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
45,148 posts, read 36,338,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty011 View Post
FYI and a note to the ignorant, the bold type above is not limited to the South. Is it even possible to educate some people on this?? Apparently not on CD. It's like pi$$ing in the wind.

ps, there is just as much negativity of the North as anywhere in the country.
True dat - couldn't rep you again but here's a public shout out.
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,267,501 times
Reputation: 2168
Ah, Maryland in the Civil War era. Allow me to paraphrase from Robert Brugger's Maryland: A Middle Temperament. It is a must-have for anyone interested in Maryland's unique history.

Maryland was a "border state" that allowed slavery - the same goes for Delaware. Some considered it southern, others considered it northern[1]. It was part of the Union and the majority of Maryland men fought in the US army. Maryland voted 54-14 to remain part of the Union, and outright rejected the Confederate States BEFORE the federal government clamped down on secessionists in the state government[2].

Before the war broke out, there was a hiatus in government affairs in early 1861, and men located in various sections of the country were allowed to choose allegiance and relocate to the "country" of their preference and join the army of their preference. When Maryland men were given the free opportunity to walk to Virginia and join the Confederate army, only 15,000 chose to do so. Nearly three times that number joined the United States army in the same period[3].

The Confederate states invaded Maryland twice, and both times received a very cold reception, and the response was a rapid rise in enlistment of Maryland men in the Union army[4]. The Confederate States did not consider Maryland anything more than quasi-southern, and this is why the Confederate flag does not have stars for Maryland (or Delaware), even though they included them for Missouri and Kentucky which they truly considered "occupied" southern territory.

Maryland was also ended slavery through it's state government (in 1864) - just like New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and other northern states had done before. New Jersey was an exception, it was forced to end slavery by the federal government in late 1865 [5]. Maryland also voted for Abraham Lincoln in 1864, which equated to a massive show of support for the Union cause. Unlike Maryland, New York, Pennsylvania, etc, which ended slavery on their own volition, all of the southern states were forced at gunpoint to end slavery by the Union army and the emancipation proclamation.

Furthermore, Maryland was not subject to Reconstruction, a process that characterized the late 19th-century south. After the war, all black Maryland men were also given the right to vote - a right which was given faster than many northern states like Ohio, and the right for blacks to vote was not forced by the federal government like in the southern states, but it was a conscious decision made by Maryland voters. In addition, black Marylanders were never disenfranchised en masse as they were in the southern states after the Democrats dismantled Reconstruction efforts. Maryland had a larger percentage of it's electorate composed of blacks (about a quarter) than any state during the early 20th century[6].

[1] Brugger, Robert J. Maryland, a Middle Temperament, 1634-1980. Robert G. Merrick ed. Baltimore, Md.: Johns Hopkins UP in Association with the Maryland Historical Society, 1988. 202.
[2] Ibid.
[3] Ibid. 221.
[4] Ibid. 225.
[5] Ibid. 236.
[6] Ibid. 275.

So in short, you have a state that shared characteristics with both northern and southern states. While Maryland leaned towards the southern states in politics, culture, and economy before the war, it decisively shifted north during and after the war. Maryland became more northern in politics, culture, language, and economy by the year. Today in 2014, Maryland is an undeniably northern state in culture, politics, economy and language. Nonetheless, parts of Maryland carry southern influence, namely on the sparsely populated eastern shore (Somerset, Worcester, Wicomico) and in the counties bordering Virginia (Charles, Calvert).

Last edited by hobbesdj; 08-28-2014 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,267,501 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty011 View Post
FYI and a note to the ignorant, the bold type above is not limited to the South. Is it even possible to educate some people on this?? Apparently not on CD. It's like pi$$ing in the wind.

ps, there is just as much negativity of the North as anywhere in the country.
This is an interesting comment.

In my area, southerners very much have a reputation for kindness and tolerance. I do notice a large difference in the perception of the south among blacks compared to left-leaning whites and northern whites. While many members of this demographic have a perception of the south as virulently racist towards blacks, many blacks have much more positive perceptions of the south. It is irony thick enough to be cut with a knife. It is a situation where well-meaning whites can come off to blacks as rather condescending and arrogant by telling blacks where they are best off, instead of listening to the black opinion on the subject.

In Maryland, many people actually have a negative perception of northerners, although it can greatly vary by depending on the state in question. New Jersey, for example, has a very poor reputation, and is the butt of countless jokes. The negative stereotype of a northerner is someone who is arrogant, rude, condescending, driven by the ceaseless pursuit of money, destructive, and selfish. Because of this many Marylanders prefer to identify as southerners, whether they actually share any southern influence or not. The same phenomenon is present in Pennsylvania and even southern New Jersey, which are quintessential northern states.

Personally I would rather identify as a southerner, but at the same time I am well aware of the reality that Maryland is a northeastern state and that I am northerner, willing or not. There is just far too much in common with the northeast, and far too little in common with the south for me to seriously claim to be a southerner with a straight face. To be brutally honest, the idea that Maryland is a southern state is flat out laughable. In 1860 there was an argument to be made, but today it is a joke.
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Old 08-29-2014, 05:07 AM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,951,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty011 View Post
FYI and a note to the ignorant, the bold type above is not limited to the South. Is it even possible to educate some people on this?? Apparently not on CD. It's like pi$$ing in the wind.

ps, there is just as much negativity of the North as anywhere in the country.
Although I realize I made some generalizations, there is still a large degree of truth in those stereotypes about the South. For example trailer parks: the Northeast is generally to cold to live in a trailer so obviously you find more trailer parks in the South. Generally, lower income white people live in those trailer parks hence the stereotype that many rednecks populate the South. Lower income white people generally don't give high priority to dental hygiene or cannot afford appropriate dental care so the 'bad teeth' stereotype bears much resemblance to the truth as well. From its past of slavery, the racist stereotype is pretty obvious as well.

How Maryland sees itself in the North vs South debate seems a difficult matter. It's not like the Northeast is any better than the South, it just has a different kind of issues like violent crime and urban decay. Maybe Maryland should not have signed the declaration of Independence in the first place and become independent instead or remain a part of Britain(which would have provided the advantage of general dental health care through the NHS as well).
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:19 AM
 
3,971 posts, read 3,507,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drro View Post
Although I realize I made some generalizations, there is still a large degree of truth in those stereotypes about the South. For example trailer parks: the Northeast is generally to cold to live in a trailer so obviously you find more trailer parks in the South. Generally, lower income white people live in those trailer parks hence the stereotype that many rednecks populate the South. Lower income white people generally don't give high priority to dental hygiene or cannot afford appropriate dental care so the 'bad teeth' stereotype bears much resemblance to the truth as well. From its past of slavery, the racist stereotype is pretty obvious as well.
There are PLENTY of trailer parks in the frigid parts of this country, including the northeast that is such horse sh**. Even if there weren't a lot of trailer parks in the northeast, there is a just as high ratio of white trash, living in a resemblent environment. The myth that there is more white trash in south than the north, particularly the north east is one of my favorites. There are certain elements that don't get any classier no matter where they live and it has nothing to do with socio-economic conditions. I feel like the hyperbole on CD has racheted it up a notch this week, it must be a full moon or something. I'm tempted to start a thread quoting my favorite ignorant comments.
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
45,148 posts, read 36,338,000 times
Reputation: 63907
Quote:
Originally Posted by drro View Post
Although I realize I made some generalizations, there is still a large degree of truth in those stereotypes about the South. For example trailer parks: the Northeast is generally to cold to live in a trailer so obviously you find more trailer parks in the South. Generally, lower income white people live in those trailer parks hence the stereotype that many rednecks populate the South. Lower income white people generally don't give high priority to dental hygiene or cannot afford appropriate dental care so the 'bad teeth' stereotype bears much resemblance to the truth as well.
All stereotypes have some degree of truth to them. For instance, the stereotype that people from the north are rude. Or that taxes are incredibly high. Or that everyone lives all crowded up together. Or that pollution is terrible. Or that you're snowed in for four straight months. Or that everyone walks around with a scowl on their face. Of course those are stereotypes - and they have an element of truth to them as well.

Quote:
From its past of slavery, the racist stereotype is pretty obvious as well.
Slavery in the South was big, big business from which people in Europe, Africa, and the northeastern United States profited as well as Southern slave owners. And just to clarify - 75 percent of Southerners owned no slaves at all.

One of the greatest strides we've made as human beings is the concept of civil rights and the equality of the races (and even today in the 21st century there are many parts of the world, and many cultures, who still have no concept of these ideals). But these ideals are relatively new on the "humanity front." For instance, many states (not just southern states) outlawed interracial relationships (not just marriage) up until the mid 1960s.

In fact, speaking of Maryland, interracial marriages were banned in Maryland till 1967.

Quote:
How Maryland sees itself in the North vs South debate seems a difficult matter. It's not like the Northeast is any better than the South, it just has a different kind of issues like violent crime and urban decay. Maybe Maryland should not have signed the declaration of Independence in the first place and become independent instead or remain a part of Britain([B]which would have provided the advantage of general dental health care through the NHS as well[/b]).
I agree with you about it being difficult to pinpoint which region Maryland fits best into. That's because it's a border state - it seems so easy to comprehend this, that I'm amazed at peoples' insistence that this is an either/or thing. I just wonder why it's so important to some people to categorize Maryland as EITHER Northern OR Southern rather than just being reasonable and saying what to me seems obvious - it's a little of both. And a very little, I might add - it's a tiny state!

But it does have the coolest flag in the entire US in my opinion. And it does look like a European sort of flag.

But I doubt that most Marylanders are struggling very much to find good dental care.
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Old 08-29-2014, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
45,148 posts, read 36,338,000 times
Reputation: 63907
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
There are PLENTY of trailer parks in the frigid parts of this country, including the northeast that is such horse sh**. Even if there weren't a lot of trailer parks in the northeast, there is a just as high ratio of white trash, living in a resemblent environment. The myth that there is more white trash in south than the north, particularly the north east is one of my favorites. There are certain elements that don't get any classier no matter where they live and it has nothing to do with socio-economic conditions. I feel like the hyperbole on CD has racheted it up a notch this week, it must be a full moon or something. I'm tempted to start a thread quoting my favorite ignorant comments.
Now THAT would be a great thread - start it! It will be fed till C-D exists no longer!
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,304 posts, read 26,300,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Ah, Maryland in the Civil War era. Allow me to paraphrase from Robert Brugger's Maryland: A Middle Temperament. It is a must-have for anyone interested in Maryland's unique history.

Maryland was a "border state" that allowed slavery - the same goes for Delaware. Some considered it southern, others considered it northern[1].
Let's stop right there. You can read this book for free on Google.

Maryland, A Middle Temperament: 1634-1980 - Robert J. Brugger - Google Books

Where does Brugger ever say "others considered it northern"? Bruegger writes that "Maryland had become a sectional netherland, a mix of free and slave economy, Northern and Southern Culture" on Page 248. I don't see how that translates into "others considered it northern," particularly when historians and geographers identified it as part of the Upper South.

One theme that seems pervasive is that being "torn" between Union and the Confederacy and having "divided loyalties" somehow negates a southern identity. That's clearly not the case, as the example of Kentucky illustrates. And the division that existed in Maryland, where poorer, non-slaveholding whites in Appalachia were more pro-Union whereas slaveholding areas in the Tidewater/Low Country were more pro-Confederacy, also rang true in other southern states that were divided between Appalachia and the Low Country. In fact, it's not clear that this characterization of Maryland is even accurate:

Quote:
Michael Powell, professor of history at Frederick Community College, re-examines an issue that was long thought resolved: that Frederick County, while divided in its sympathies, was decidely pro-Northern. This is not the case according to Powell's contribution. By relying primarily upon newspapers and election returns, Powell uses the presidential election of 1860 to prove that Frederick County was, in fact, Southern in its interests...The county voted overwhelmingly for the two "Southern" candidates. In Frederick County, John Breckenridge, the most ardent southern candidate, captured the election districts with both the highest percentage of slavery and the lowest. Not only is this contrary to voting patterns in the rest of the South, but it also raises significant questions regarding the correlation between slave-holding and voting patterns in the Upper South.
Quote:
Certainly the results of the election of 1860 can be explained to reflect a Southern county in a Southern state seeking to protect her southern interests.
Mid-Maryland: A Crossroads of History - Google Books

Last edited by BajanYankee; 08-29-2014 at 10:59 AM..
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee
3,451 posts, read 3,406,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
And Baltimore is NOT a Rust Belt city.
Meh, depends on the definition: Rust Belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's just as commonly included as it's left off. This is an informal buzz term where there is no absolute definition - but Baltimore qualifies to me personally (why wouldn't it?), and it's more often than not included on Rust Belt city lists. So why sweat it? I live in a city nicer than Baltimore that's also called "rust belt." Both Baltimore and Milwaukee have old-school character and it's meaningless what labels outsiders apply. I'd prefer a "rust belt" city over a transient sprawling southern (or northern) one any day.
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
985 posts, read 623,915 times
Reputation: 419
Most likely Virginia. But Virginia in my opinion is a Southern state, and always will be.
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