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I don't see how Maryland can be considered southern. I mean maybe back in 1860 it had more in common with the south. It doesn't really seem to have dick in common with the south now. But if we go on 1860 geography lets start refering to Michigan as the West and everything past St Louis as our manifest destiny full of savages.
What I SAID was that from MY perspective - as someone from the "Deep South," Maryland never has "felt southern" to me. It feels MidAtlantic to me. I'm sure it feels and has felt quite "southern" though, to some people. That's common with states that border other regions or countries (aka "border states"). For an example of how this sort of debate can never be proven one way or the other, just mosey on over to the Texas forum and peruse the PLETHORA of threads debating whether or not Texas is a southern state!
Again, this has nothing to do with history, which is an academic discipline that generally requires the reading of a book or article or two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I also said that geographically speaking, Maryland doesn't fall within the geographically southern states of the US. Do you agree or disagree?
Of course, it does. The U.S. Census places it there.
But if you mean that our geographical concepts don't always align with literal geography, then yes, I would agree with you. Maryland would be more northeastern than southeastern. Ohio would also be more northeastern than Midwestern. The "Midwest," in fact," is not very Midwestern at all, as much of it is located in the Eastern United States. North Philadelphia is not very "northern" since it's located in the dead center of the city.
Obviously, history factors into our concept of geography, not simply location on a map. If we are going to be hyper-technical about geography, New York is nowhere close to being a "Mid Atlantic" city since the mid point of the eastern seaboard is along the coast of North Carolina.
Geographically, Maryland has never been a southern state.
However, though Maryland was a slave state, it did not secede from the Union. It was considered a "border state" during the Civil War. It had close ties to both the Union and the Confederacy culturally and economically.
This history creates a dichotomy which is not unusual for states which border other regions or countries (see "Texas," and "West Virginia" as other examples of states with a mixture of cultural influences).
You can call it whatever you want to call it. I consider Maryland a Mid Atlantic state which never seceded from the Union. I also consider Maryland to be a beautiful state with great food, gorgeous scenery, and friendly people - and I always enjoy the hints of southern culture when I'm there, as well as the cultural influences that make Maryland markedly different from what I think "feels southern."
I don't see how Maryland can be considered southern. I mean maybe back in 1860 it had more in common with the south. It doesn't really seem to have dick in common with the south now. But if we go on 1860 geography lets start refering to Michigan as the West and everything past St Louis as our manifest destiny full of savages.
Geographically, Maryland has never been a southern state.
See the above post.
Maryland certainly would have been a southern state at the inception of the Union. Just like Ohio was "Northwestern Territory" in the 18th Century. Those observations would have been accurate from the vantage point of people living back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
However, though Maryland was a slave state, it did not secede from the Union. It was considered a "border state" during the Civil War.
You say "border state" as if "South" and "border state" are mutually exclusive. They clearly weren't (aren't).
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I consider Maryland a Mid Atlantic state which never seceded from the Union.
Is it really that hard to stay on track? I'm not talking about what you consider Maryland to be, I'm talking about the state's regional identity throughout most of its history. It seems impossible for you to separate the two.
Historically, it seems to me that the primary dividing line between North and South was slavery and treatment of blacks in general. Perhaps you can throw immigration patterns and manufacturing prowess in there as well.
Now, in 2014, slavery was abolished 150 years ago, and Jim Crow 50 years ago. They are therefore not as relevant in determining North vs South as they used to be, in the minds of most people at least. Manufacturing in the North has declined, as has its immigration advantage over the South (the South now receives large numbers of immigrants, albeit not always from the same countries of origin as Northern immigrants).
Hence, now that the massive North vs South race relations schism no longer exists (or has been greatly reduced), the unwashed masses outside this city data subforum tend to use the following criteria in determining whether an area is Northeastern or Southern: urbanity/population density, liberal/Democratic politics, and wealth. I would disagree with using those differentiators, but regardless, that's how tons of people see it, in my opinion.
Maryland certainly would have been a southern state at the inception of the Union. Just like Ohio was "Northwestern Territory" in the 18th Century. Those observations would have been accurate from the vantage point of people living back then.
You say "border state" as if "South" and "border state" are mutually exclusive. They clearly weren't (aren't).
Is it really that hard to stay on track? I'm not talking about what you consider Maryland to be, I'm talking about the state's regional identity throughout most of its history. It seems impossible for you to separate the two.
Speaking of an inability to stay on track, how many times and how many different ways do I have to explain (for you to understand) that my position is that Maryland, by virtue of being a BORDER STATE, has both Southern and Northern characteristics? That's not saying that Maryland is "NOT" a southern state culturally (though it's certainly not one geographically). What I'm saying is that when it comes to BORDER STATES people tend to see what they want to see, or what they most identify with - or in some cases, what they most despise.
I gave the example of West Virginia - apparently some people consider West Virginia to be "southern." I personally don't - but that doesn't mean it's not. Maybe it is, maybe it's not - as another BORDER STATE, it has a mixed heritage of both northern and southern influences.
Like Maryland.
Can you honestly not understand this position? It's not an "either/or" thing - even if you want it to be, for some reason which is unfathomable to me.
Can you honestly not understand this position? It's not an "either/or" thing - even if you want it to be, for some reason which is unfathomable to me.
I'll keep it simple for you....was Maryland ever a southern state? If not, how do you explain the historical record confirming it was a southern state?
Historically, it seems to me that the primary dividing line between North and South was slavery and treatment of blacks in general. Perhaps you can throw immigration patterns and manufacturing prowess in there as well.
I don't care what states are considered what in 2014. I was simply saying that Maryland was a southern state. Kathryn has replied that it was a "border" state, as if a border state (which really just means a slave state that didn't secede) can't be a southern state. That's not an answer to the question of whether Maryland was a southern state or not.
Even the answer is "No, it was only a border state, and never a southern state," it would be nice to have some type of source to support that claim. Driving around a state with hubby in 2002 and "feeling the culture" is not the way to support a historical claim.
That said, given that Maryland was able to go from southern to "non-southern," what other places are likely to follow suit on the basis of demographic change and political realignment?
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