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Old 10-18-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I don't know how Mexico gets its race stats but I'm sure they are about as ****-poor as the USA's. In the US, a White man can be a Swede, but he can also be an Algerian or a Palestinian. So even if Mexico's "white" figures are overinflated, so are the USA's. Because it can mean whatever you want it to mean.
What you choose to identify on a piece of paper can be entirely different from how you will be perceived in everyday life. Sure an Arab can mark down "White" on the census sheet, but could still face discrimination and be treated as if they are a racial minority. Don't even get me started on the racial profiling many Middle Eastern Americans have to go through. Post 9-11 is a perfect example of that.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
What you choose to identify on a piece of paper can be entirely different from how you will be perceived in everyday life. Sure an Arab can mark down "White" on the census sheet, but could still face discrimination and be treated as if they are a racial minority. Don't even get me started on the racial profiling many Middle Eastern Americans have to go through. Post 9-11 is a perfect example of that.
Oh, I agree. I'm just pointing out that it's not like the US Census is necessarily more accurate than Mexico's.

While I have yet to meet any Nordic looking Mexican, I have met more than a few who could pass for Greek, Italian, Portuguese, or gasp, Spaniards. In Latin America, this is White. Especially considering that they look nothing like the Asiatic resembling Amerindians. But it's ridiculous to assume that most everyone in Mexico is Amerindian, because that is not how migration patterns worked, not to mention that it is well documented that the Spaniards did in fact intermix with the Amerindians living there. It's more accurate to say that Mexicans are mostly Mestizo, with small pockets of unmixed Amerindians, and yes, people of European descent. I don't know if Mexico is really 10% White, but that can be argued about any location. Go to Dearborn, Michigan. It's over 70% White. But is it, really?

In fact, famous Mexicans like Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo were not Amerindian, but had Semitic roots. Even Salma Hayek has Arab descent.

Amerindians:

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,264,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I don't know how Mexico gets its race stats but I'm sure they are about as ****-poor as the USA's. In the US, a White man can be a Swede, but he can also be an Algerian or a Palestinian. So even if Mexico's "white" figures are overinflated, so are the USA's. Because it can mean whatever you want it to mean.
We know historically that Americans are mostly northern European/Germanic stock. British, German, Dutch, French, Scandinavian, Irish. With a huge emphasis on British and German.
Palestinians and Arabs have been a ridiculously tiny minority. Dearborn Michigan is a huge exception the rule. Most American small towns that are 70% white are people who are of British/German/Irish/Scandinavian, etc stock. We know this historically. North Africans and Middle Easterners are what? Pushing 2% of the population? When we see the average American he or she looks like a Briton, German, Scandinavian, etc, not remotely like a North African or even Spaniard.

Even people like Poles and Italians have not been nearly as large of a contribution as these other groups, and most people are part any of these nationalities are usually still half or mostly still British/German. This is why we speak a Germanic language and are traditionally a protestant country. And this is why when we look at Germans and Britons (and Australians and Canadians), they look like Americans. The Latin people Europe from Italy, Spain and Portugal (especially), and even France look Every different from Americans, as do the Slavs from eastern Europe.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:07 PM
Status: "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,844 posts, read 21,150,344 times
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Most Americans only have contact with two Hispanic groups: mostly Indio looking immigrants from Mexico and Central American and mostly Spanish or African looking Cubans. Most would be surprised that the main ethnic group in southern South America is Italian or Portuguese and that millions of Asian immigrants have moved to SA. A Hispanic can be literally any race that exists in any combination.

And in regards to "Arabs" - a name that to the common American means any Muslim not of African or Asian decent - that are very similar looking to Southern Europeans. Only distinctive clothing of conservative Muslims masks that difference. If Europe was mostly Muslim or the Middle East was mostly Christian I don't think we'd make a racial distinction between them.

Johnny Maziel, Steve Jobs, and Mitch Daniels are all 50% Syrian and 100% pass for White.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Phoenix Arizona
2,032 posts, read 4,037,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
That is more a colloquial term to denote 'my people.' Kind of like saying mi gente.

No one in my family or circle of friends has ever used that term, so not everyone out in 'the West' believes that idea.

Mexican-Americans who consider themselves a race are confused. Then they become ignorant and have a hard time accepting that Mexico is a multicultural country, and there are White, Asian and even Black Mexicans.
I'm not saying thats the way it is, its just what I hear often times. I'm not Mexican-american so its not my place to say how it is. Seems like "hispanic" means something different on the East Coast where the mix is Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, and many other nations, compared to places like LA, PHX, and Denver where its predominately Mexican ancestry.
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:01 PM
 
3,308 posts, read 2,767,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Hispanics always say that. "My mother has green eyes and red hair, etc" and you actually see the person for yourself and they don't look like a white person. A Rubia in Latin America dentoes someone with even the slightest tinge of light hair, that wouldn't be considered even close to a blonde by actual white people in America, Britain or Australia, or Germany. And they can't wait to tell you about their Spanish grandmother.
No, actually the White people in my family and circle of friends are White- they are red heads with red freckles, and natural blondes with green and blue eyes. I don't really care if they are considered blonde by the UK and former British colonies- there is no request for validation. It is to dispel the silly idea that Hispanic is a race, which it is not.

The only people I have met who mention the Spanish grandmother/father are people who actually have Spanish grandparents. What is wrong with that?

Quote:
In most of Latin America like Mexico the percentage although they claim ridiculous numbers of whites like 10%. In reality more like 1-2%, maybe even 3-5% of the population and always the little elite that controls all the wealth. Well over 90% of Hispanics are not white, period. I don't know why so many want so desperately to be white. Lots of "black" people in America are majority European, but they don't go around trying to claim how white they are. A very small percentage of Hispanics are white, and the only areas with large concentrations are the regions like southern Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina. And even still these people are Latin whites, not really like "white" people in America who are usually British, German, Dutch, etc.. They look very different, are much shorter, etc.
It doesn't matter what the percentages are, and your comment reflects that of a person with very limited travels to Latin America. it is not desperately trying to be White, it is having your society/cutlure represented for what it truly is.

In Mexico, not only the elites are White. White mestizos are quite common in states like Nuevo Leon, Chihuahua, Baja California, Sinaloa, Sonora, Jalisco, and others. Whether they are 'Latin' White (hilarious term) or 'Nordic' White, who cares?

Also, people who have actually traveled extensively through Southern Brazil, the whole of Argentina and Uruguay knows that there are quite a few people descendants of Germans, Polish, Ukranians, Irish, and many other European groups. They are not a minority there.


Quote:
It really is so simple. I don't see what's so hard to get, or why some want to reject what they are to be something they aren't.
You are right, it is so simple, which is why this conversation shouldn't even exist. Hispanic is not a race, and some can choose the White category if they feel they are White.


Quote:
No they aren't. They immigrated to America. They are doing the right thing and trying to become part of American society. In our society there is a concept of white people. Mexican Americans who want to keep being Mexican should just stay in Mexico. I don't get what's hard to understand. If you immigrate to someone's country, you adopt their culture and values. There is a whole country of Mexican values: it's called Mexico. If you want to live in America with the benefits of American culture (first world economy, for example) then you have to become culturally American.
What is becoming culturally American? Is it learning the language well (as I obviously have), participating in its democratic society (as many of us do)? Working hard (many of us do)? Playing baseball, American football, and softball (many of us do)? Celebrating 4th of July and Thanksgiving (some of our favorite holidays)?

We can do as we please, and adopt the positives of both of our cultures, just like many other Americans of Irish, Scottish, Polish, etc...descent have. I like Mexico, my parents are Mexicans. I will not ignore that, how silly would that be? We are not robots.
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:09 PM
 
3,308 posts, read 2,767,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacto View Post
I'm not saying thats the way it is, its just what I hear often times. I'm not Mexican-american so its not my place to say how it is. Seems like "hispanic" means something different on the East Coast where the mix is Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, and many other nations, compared to places like LA, PHX, and Denver where its predominately Mexican ancestry.
Yes, but even the 'Hispanic' cultures of California, Colorado, Arizona Texas and New Mexico are all very different. They all have local cultures with different roots from the past.

You'd be surprised how different a Mexican-American from Texas is compared to a Mexican-American from California.

I grew up in the surfer/punk culture, a tejano friend of mine wore cowboy boots & hats and listened mostly to country and Tex-Mex music. Our idea of 'Mexican food' was completely different. We would fight about everything, it was hilarious. Of course everything made in Texas was better.
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,264,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
No, actually the White people in my family and circle of friends are White- they are red heads with red freckles, and natural blondes with green and blue eyes. I don't really care if they are considered blonde by the UK and former British colonies- there is no request for validation. It is to dispel the silly idea that Hispanic is a race, which it is not.

The only people I have met who mention the Spanish grandmother/father are people who actually have Spanish grandparents. What is wrong with that?
Wow, congratulations. You are part of a very, very tiny minority of actually "white" Latinos. But I would bet a few bucks that I could look at you and your family and easily notice they are "Latino" and differentiate them from "native" Americans. There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't understand why you seem ashamed of this. Why do you feel the need to keep posting about it so much? Always pressing everyone about how many whites are in Latin America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
It doesn't matter what the percentages are, and your comment reflects that of a person with very limited travels to Latin America. it is not desperately trying to be White, it is having your society/cutlure represented for what it truly is.
I am very well traveled in Mexico, not in the rest of Latin America. I can count on one hand how many "White" people I have seen on one hand traveling all over MExico from DF down to the Yucatan, and yes including the supposedly "white" Guadalara that "white" Mexicans are so proud of. I also went to an itnernational school full of "white" Latin Americans who clearly have a complex of looking down on their non white majority countrymen, yet they have an inferiority complex compared to actual white people from America, Canada, the Netherlands, England, etc.

Reflecting your society and culture for what truly is? Yes, not white, that is what Mexican culture is. It is a mix of mostly native culture with some elements from the extreme south of Europe which used to be Muslim (Spain). Countries like the US, Canada, Australia, Britain, Germany, Switzerland, etc are actually settled by whites, and the base population and cultural traditions are white. In Mexico and the vast majority of Latin America a white ruling class came in and mixed with the natives, with only a tiny minority remaining "white" and again not even that white coming from the extreme south of Europe just across from Africa. I hope you can learn to embrace this, rather than reject your heritage to try to appear more "white".

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
Also, people who have actually traveled extensively through Southern Brazil, the whole of Argentina and Uruguay knows that there are quite a few people descendants of Germans, Polish, Ukranians, Irish, and many other European groups. They are not a minority there.
In some specific areas they are not a minority, but in Argentina, Uruguay and southern Brazil as a whole, most "whites" are from the extreme south of what was once Muslim Europe: Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, often with an African or native grandparent or great grandparent. The "white" population is indeed prevalent though, but once again you are exaggerating, making it sound like gigantic swaths of these areas are really white. We can simply look up statistics, and even last names, and Germans, Poles, etc are a minority.

For example, I am sitting here with David Rock's Argentina 1516-1987: From Spanish Colonization to Alfonsin in front of me and I can clearly look up immigration data to Argentina. On page 166 he clearly states that there were around 1 million Italians and more than 800,000 Spaniards in Argentina, in addition to the original wave of Spaniards who pioneered the country. There were also 94,000 Russians and Poles, 86,000 French, 80,000 Ottoman Turks including Lebanese and Syrians. The Germans, Welsh, and other supposedly widesopread immigrants made up less than 5,000 each. So give me a break about trying to make these places look like German or British colonies. The "whitest" country in Latin America, Argentina, is mostly Italian and Spanish, from the far south of Europe. Yet Argentines are famous for embellishing their supposed whiteness and looking down on Brazilians for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
What is becoming culturally American? Is it learning the language well (as I obviously have), participating in its democratic society (as many of us do)? Working hard (many of us do)? Playing baseball, American football, and softball (many of us do)? Celebrating 4th of July and Thanksgiving (some of our favorite holidays)?

We can do as we please, and adopt the positives of both of our cultures, just like many other Americans of Irish, Scottish, Polish, etc...descent have. I like Mexico, my parents are Mexicans. I will not ignore that, how silly would that be? We are not robots.
Are you serious? Speaking English for example is being culturally American. Speaking Spanish or Chinese is foreign. The Mexicans are not comparable to the Irish or Scottish, that really is a ridiculous contrast. Mexicans are far more foreign, and have a much harder time assimilating. They speak natively a different language. The Scottish and Irish are "native" Americans, as are the English and Germans and African Americans; Mexicans are not. They are a foreign people moving to America. This is clearly evident in places like southern California. A German immigrant becomes "American" far faster and tends to have more respect for American cultural tradition as we are a much more similar people.

You can like Mexico all you want. But if you like Mexico more than America, you shouldn't be in America just to enjoy our superior economy, innovation, and infrastructure while refusing to adopt American culture. That is detrimental to our society and economy. The thing that so many Mexicans don't understand is that Mexican culture built Mexico, the place these immigrants want to get away from. Yet you want to keep that culture and replace American culture in California with Mexican culture, thereby recreating the very country you are trying to get away from. What kind of sense does that make?

So as for Mexican culture it has some excellent food and respectable musical and cultural traditions, but when it comes down to things like economics why the heck would we want to install Mexican culture in California? Let's be honest here: who has better graduation rates? Mexicans or Americans? Who has higher incomes, Mexicans or Americans? Who invents more technology, Mexicans or Americans? Who built a country that people from all over the world are desperate to get into? Mexicans or Americans?

And the Mexicans who are successful in these fields tend to drop Mexican culture for American culture and become a "Hispanic American" rather than a "Mexican" who happens to just be living in America. So if you don't know what being culturally American is, that is really dangerous and really brings up some serious questions about the viability of mass Mexican migration into the southwest. It is a total failure if these people fail to adopt Ameican culture. Nobody, not even most of these immigrants, wants California to become Mexico Norte.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:26 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,850,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
We know historically that Americans are mostly northern European/Germanic stock. British, German, Dutch, French, Scandinavian, Irish. With a huge emphasis on British and German.
Palestinians and Arabs have been a ridiculously tiny minority. Dearborn Michigan is a huge exception the rule. Most American small towns that are 70% white are people who are of British/German/Irish/Scandinavian, etc stock. We know this historically. North Africans and Middle Easterners are what? Pushing 2% of the population? When we see the average American he or she looks like a Briton, German, Scandinavian, etc, not remotely like a North African or even Spaniard.

Even people like Poles and Italians have not been nearly as large of a contribution as these other groups, and most people are part any of these nationalities are usually still half or mostly still British/German. This is why we speak a Germanic language and are traditionally a protestant country. And this is why when we look at Germans and Britons (and Australians and Canadians), they look like Americans. The Latin people Europe from Italy, Spain and Portugal (especially), and even France look Every different from Americans, as do the Slavs from eastern Europe.
I don't disagree with anything here. But while Arabs are not a large % of the population, I was pointing out that our recording method is faulty as well.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:31 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,850,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Most Americans only have contact with two Hispanic groups: mostly Indio looking immigrants from Mexico and Central American and mostly Spanish or African looking Cubans. Most would be surprised that the main ethnic group in southern South America is Italian or Portuguese and that millions of Asian immigrants have moved to SA. A Hispanic can be literally any race that exists in any combination.

And in regards to "Arabs" - a name that to the common American means any Muslim not of African or Asian decent - that are very similar looking to Southern Europeans. Only distinctive clothing of conservative Muslims masks that difference. If Europe was mostly Muslim or the Middle East was mostly Christian I don't think we'd make a racial distinction between them.

Johnny Maziel, Steve Jobs, and Mitch Daniels are all 50% Syrian and 100% pass for White.
I don't know, I always thought Manziel looked ambiguous. Jobs looked less and less Arab with age. Depends who you ask or where you are. In Western Michigan, Southern Europeans are not considered White, or at the very least the "same kind" of White that the Dutch are. Put a Spaniard or Portuguese person in Holland, Michigan and see how many people there take him as their own.

Look, race isn't even a thing. Arabs can be classified as "Mediterranean Caucasoids" (what I am) by outdated "science". I don't think White is a thing as Black isn't a thing or Asian isn't a thing. But if these "races" are categories, they sure are more accurate than "Hispanic". But you're right, don't get me started on "White" as that could mean anything to anyone at anytime.

In the East Coast, a dark and hairy olive skinned bearded fellow like me is White. In the South and the Midwest, forget it. Depending on who you ask I may or may not be White. I was raised believing White is only Northern European, that's it.
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