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Old 11-16-2014, 09:18 AM
 
8 posts, read 13,044 times
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I am a British citizen, I have lived in the UK and the US for half of my life. I have lived in very gun friendly states and even then I feel that the 'outside' perspective is very over-exaggerated due to recent media triffles. I am not in support of guns whatsoever, though I do know many people that collect them and use them for hunting. Still, I ultimately think that many people outside of the US have it misconstrued. Yes, there's gun crime, but I've personally seen more violent crimes over here in the UK without the 'need' for the perpetrators to have guns. There are A LOT of guns in the US, but I feel most people are very responsible with them. At the end of the day I suppose it depends on what area you live in. I've noticed the crime in the places where I lived was awful compared to where I lived in the US, but I also need to keep in mind there's a huge difference in population density between the different areas and I think this is highly influential

 
Old 11-16-2014, 09:20 AM
 
3,147 posts, read 2,944,209 times
Reputation: 1858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
1. I know that in many U.S. states you are allowed to use "lethal force" if someone tries to invade your home etc.
And in places where you are not allowed to, you are at the mercy of bad people with weapons. Those people kill innocent people all the time.

I sleep so much better at night knowing that if somebody breaks into my house to steal/murder/rape/etc... I can dispatch them and ensure the safety of myself and my loved ones.

Don't want shot? Don't break into peoples houses... seems simple enough.

Quote:
2. Your police is also allowed to shoot people to death for very minor reasons.
That is a lack of police accountability. I don't know how you think disarming the populace will make this better.



Quote:
3. It seems to be a scary place... Even my American friends are very scared to walk on the street in the night etc. They prefer driving because of the safety!
Your American friends are wusses.

The city center area of cities is often the most crime filled... despite this, thousands and thousands and thousands of people walk around downtown in large cities with no fear of being a victim of a random shooter.

What kills more people more often? Random gun violence or automotive accidents? If you look at the statistics, your friends are actually raising their chance of dying because they are ignorant.

Quote:
4. Well people in other countries just can't understand how harming other people or owning devices designed to kill people is freedom.

I'm sorry but your country doesn't appear to be so free anymore:



Maybe it's more free than average but it's certainly not the most free.
Yeah, and countries that ban guns on average are not freer, there are more countries with less freedom who have banned guns than more freedom.

Plus that is just one measure of freedom.. kinda a weak way to make a point. The fact that the USA is loosing freedoms is an argument FOR guns not against them.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 01:05 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,528,548 times
Reputation: 17606
Majurius, again you're using "allowed to" wrongly. Police aren't "allowed to" kill people for minor offenses. They are supposed to use whatever level of force they feel is necessary when necessary, and that is under their discretion. There are probably millions of cops in the US (don't have numbers but there are a lot) and they're not all the same. There is no universal "hey, you're allowed to shoot whoever you want!" rule for cops. That's absurd and it's sad you have that warped view of America. If a cop shoots a person, the incident is investigated no matter what - if a cop fires his weapon at all, the incident is investigated. It is protocol. If the investigation finds the officer should not have used lethal force and discharged his weapon (into a person), then he/she will face punishment of some sort, depending on the situation.

As far as your American friends being afraid to walk around at night, you're either lying or being intentionally vague. Where do these friends live? In a city? In a "just ok" neighborhood of a city? You act as if people in America, everywhere, are given free reign to shoot their guns at all times, all places. The chances of being shot, especially in a safe area (and there are ways to measure safety, you can look it up town by town in America if you wish) are pretty slim. I feel totally fine walking around my area alone at night. Totally fine. I never think about the possibility of someone shooting me, it's not even on my mind.

I'm sorry, but I think the media and general stereotypes have given you a very wrong idea about America.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,401 posts, read 1,184,082 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews View Post
1. And in places where you are not allowed to, you are at the mercy of bad people with weapons. Those people kill innocent people all the time.

I sleep so much better at night knowing that if somebody breaks into my house to steal/murder/rape/etc... I can dispatch them and ensure the safety of myself and my loved ones.

Don't want shot? Don't break into peoples houses... seems simple enough.



2. That is a lack of police accountability. I don't know how you think disarming the populace will make this better.





3. Your American friends are wusses.

The city center area of cities is often the most crime filled... despite this, thousands and thousands and thousands of people walk around downtown in large cities with no fear of being a victim of a random shooter.

What kills more people more often? Random gun violence or automotive accidents? If you look at the statistics, your friends are actually raising their chance of dying because they are ignorant.



4. Yeah, and countries that ban guns on average are not freer, there are more countries with less freedom who have banned guns than more freedom.

5. Plus that is just one measure of freedom.. kinda a weak way to make a point. The fact that the USA is loosing freedoms is an argument FOR guns not against them.
1. But here no one kills people. That robber is going to be unarmed and even he has a gun he is not going to kill anyone. Small grocery stores etc get robbed all the time here, but no one is ever killed... So I don't understand how adding guns and rights to use them would help anything.

2. Well police seems to think that they can get shot at anytime.

3. I thought it was weird yes But still how could I know if there's any facts behind such a behavior.
Not sure what your point is, but an automotive is built for other purposes and accidents happen. Gun's sole purpose is to kill.

4. I just meant that I don't see any correlation between freedom and guns. How come some drugs are illegal? Shouldn't everyone be able to use whatever they like? If not, how is that different from owning guns?

5. I proved how in the U.S. you can be legally put to jail for rest of your life without a trial and how freedom of speech is not in good shape. I would trade guns for real freedom any day
 
Old 11-16-2014, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,401 posts, read 1,184,082 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Majurius, again you're using "allowed to" wrongly. Police aren't "allowed to" kill people for minor offenses. They are supposed to use whatever level of force they feel is necessary when necessary, and that is under their discretion. There are probably millions of cops in the US (don't have numbers but there are a lot) and they're not all the same. There is no universal "hey, you're allowed to shoot whoever you want!" rule for cops. That's absurd and it's sad you have that warped view of America. If a cop shoots a person, the incident is investigated no matter what - if a cop fires his weapon at all, the incident is investigated. It is protocol. If the investigation finds the officer should not have used lethal force and discharged his weapon (into a person), then he/she will face punishment of some sort, depending on the situation.

As far as your American friends being afraid to walk around at night, you're either lying or being intentionally vague. Where do these friends live? In a city? In a "just ok" neighborhood of a city? You act as if people in America, everywhere, are given free reign to shoot their guns at all times, all places. The chances of being shot, especially in a safe area (and there are ways to measure safety, you can look it up town by town in America if you wish) are pretty slim. I feel totally fine walking around my area alone at night. Totally fine. I never think about the possibility of someone shooting me, it's not even on my mind.

I'm sorry, but I think the media and general stereotypes have given you a very wrong idea about America.
In Chigaco they don't want to walk. But yes they may be too afraid perhaps.

There's no way these cops wouldn't be jailed for murder in Europe:
LiveLeak.com - Graphic Video Released In 2012 Police Shooting Of Michigan Man Milton Hall
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:18 PM
 
3,147 posts, read 2,944,209 times
Reputation: 1858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
1. But here no one kills people. That robber is going to be unarmed and even he has a gun he is not going to kill anyone. Small grocery stores etc get robbed all the time here, but no one is ever killed... So I don't understand how adding guns and rights to use them would help anything.
A quick search on violent crime/murders in Finland proves that to be a bold faced lie. Innocent people get killed by criminals in Finland, your claim otherwise is completely fictional.

Quote:
2. Well police seems to think that they can get shot at anytime.
Their ignoring of the law and protocol does not mean it is allowed. It means police need to face actual accountability. Disarm the populace and they will see far less accountability, they will have zero fear of the public.

Quote:
3. I thought it was weird yes But still how could I know if there's any facts behind such a behavior.
Not sure what your point is, but an automotive is built for other purposes and accidents happen. Gun's sole purpose is to kill.
First of all, a guns sole purpose is not to kill or guns made specifically for accuracy competitions would not exist. This is just another statement that the facts don't back up from you like the one about criminals never killing innocent people in Finland. It is fiction.

My point is, if they drive because they are afraid of gun violence, they are stupid. If they think getting in a car because someone might shoot them if they walk, they are stupid. They are putting themselves at a greater risk because they don't know or understand the probability of being randomly shot in public vs. being in an autmobile. In this context,the "sole purpose" of the device doesn't matter.

One is more likely to kill you than the other, and your friends choose the more dangerous option "because they want to be safe". It doesn't matter if the gun is made to butter toast or the car is made to fly, the fact is they pick the more dangerous option in interest of their safety.





Quote:
4. I just meant that I don't see any correlation between freedom and guns. How come some drugs are illegal? Shouldn't everyone be able to use whatever they like? If not, how is that different from owning guns?

Owning guns and ingesting chemicals are completely different things. To try to link them is a straw-man.

If you don't see how a well armed populace discourages a tyrannical dictator type situation, that is on you.




Quote:
5. I proved how in the U.S. you can be legally put to jail for rest of your life without a trial and
how freedom of speech is not in good shape. I would trade guns for real freedom any day
That is cute, you think you have real freedom. That doesn't exist anywhere on Earth yet. If you have real freedom, try withholding your money from the government, that you earned with labor created from your body. Try funding only the government programs you agree with, and want to support financially and withhold the rest. Let's see how free you are when agents of the state put you in a cage for it.

If you think Finland has true freedom, I invite you to read some Francis Bacon, Adam Smith, or John Locke. Learn the principles of self-ownership and non-aggression before you proclaim how "free" you are. You aren't, like by the literal definition of the concept of freedom.....
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:31 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,528,548 times
Reputation: 17606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majurius View Post
In Chigaco they don't want to walk. But yes they may be too afraid perhaps.
Well, yeah Chicago is notorious in certain parts of the city for crime right now. You should have said Chicago rather than "some American friends" or whatever vague phrasing you chose because that makes perfect sense in parts of Chicago - parts of all major cities, probably. But suburban towns and rural areas tend to be extremely safe. Many neighborhoods of major cities are even extremely safe.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:40 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,528,548 times
Reputation: 17606
The media in Europe is heavily anti-gun and anti-American in that sense. Keep in mind you are only hearing one side in your news, and that side is heavily biased against guns. American media is largely anti-gun, too, or at the moment pretty "we're questioning the need for guns" but there is still some more balance here than you probably hear in Europe.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,401 posts, read 1,184,082 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews View Post
1. A quick search on violent crime/murders in Finland proves that to be a bold faced lie. Innocent people get killed by criminals in Finland, your claim otherwise is completely fictional.



2. Their ignoring of the law and protocol does not mean it is allowed. It means police need to face actual accountability. Disarm the populace and they will see far less accountability, they will have zero fear of the public.



3. First of all, a guns sole purpose is not to kill or guns made specifically for accuracy competitions would not exist. This is just another statement that the facts don't back up from you like the one about criminals never killing innocent people in Finland. It is fiction.

4. My point is, if they drive because they are afraid of gun violence, they are stupid. If they think getting in a car because someone might shoot them if they walk, they are stupid. They are putting themselves at a greater risk because they don't know or understand the probability of being randomly shot in public vs. being in an autmobile. In this context,the "sole purpose" of the device doesn't matter.

One is more likely to kill you than the other, and your friends choose the more dangerous option "because they want to be safe". It doesn't matter if the gun is made to butter toast or the car is made to fly, the fact is they pick the more dangerous option in interest of their safety.








5. Owning guns and ingesting chemicals are completely different things. To try to link them is a straw-man.

If you don't see how a well armed populace discourages a tyrannical dictator type situation, that is on you.






6. That is cute, you think you have real freedom. That doesn't exist anywhere on Earth yet. If you have real freedom, try withholding your money from the government, that you earned with labor created from your body. Try funding only the government programs you agree with, and want to support financially and withhold the rest. Let's see how free you are when agents of the state put you in a cage for it.

7. If you think Finland has true freedom, I invite you to read some Francis Bacon, Adam Smith, or John Locke. Learn the principles of self-ownership and non-aggression before you proclaim how "free" you are. You aren't, like by the literal definition of the concept of freedom.....
1. Alcohol behind Finland's high homicide rate | ScienceNordic Some drunks stabbing each other is very different from cashier getting murdered at a gas station.

2. For some reason it doesn't work like this in other countries. This whole consept that very people who are there to protect you should also fear you

3. Yea whatever, here you don't get murdered because someone wants to steal stuff etc. See that link.

4. Not solely because of the guns, but crime. In Finland violent street crime is basically non existent exluding those drunken brawls.

5. Lol you can easily do a revolution without guns. It happens all over the world all the time. Why are you elected leaders so bad that they would turn america a dictatorship if people wouldn't own guns?

6. There's also this little thing called democracy we have here
As you can see the US isn't best at it:


7. I didn't mean that Finland is the most free place ever. I just tried to explain why the US isn't the most free either and how freedom has nothing to do with guns.
 
Old 11-16-2014, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Finland
1,401 posts, read 1,184,082 times
Reputation: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Well, yeah Chicago is notorious in certain parts of the city for crime right now. You should have said Chicago rather than "some American friends" or whatever vague phrasing you chose because that makes perfect sense in parts of Chicago - parts of all major cities, probably. But suburban towns and rural areas tend to be extremely safe. Many neighborhoods of major cities are even extremely safe.
You may be right. But in many parts of Asia in example, big cities are safe too. So it has something to do with culture for sure.
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