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Old 11-23-2017, 07:13 PM
 
Location: IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Humid subtropical climate doesn't dominate south of 70 though. Matter of fact the climate divider isn't an interstate but the Ohio River.

And what are the Southern cultural aspects of rural Missouri north of US 60?
Baptist religious denomination plurality across most of northern Missouri, fried foods being very common, southern accents or drawls mixed in with less neutral lower Midwest speech patterns. A general slowness to everything, not really a Midwest work ethic like I'm used to seeing. Well below average median household incomes, above average poverty rates across the board, and very socially conservative. Basically, quite a bit like the South overall..
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Baptist religious denomination plurality across most of northern Missouri, fried foods being very common, southern accents or drawls mixed in with less neutral lower Midwest speech patterns. A general slowness to everything, not really a Midwest work ethic like I'm used to seeing. Well below average median household incomes, above average poverty rates across the board, and very socially conservative. Basically, quite a bit like the South overall..

Evangelicals by State
Southern States = Red
Midwestern States = Black

Tennessee 52%
Alabama 49%
Kentucky 49%
Oklahoma 47%
Arkansas 46%
Mississippi 41%
West Virginia 39%
Georgia 38%

Missouri 36%
North Carolina 35%
South Carolina 35%

Kansas 31%
Indiana 31%
Texas 31%
Virginia 30%
Ohio 29%
Iowa 28%
Louisiana 27%
South Dakota 25%
Nebraska 25%
Michigan 25%
Florida 24%
Wisconsin 22%
North Dakota 22%
Illinois 20%
Minnesota 19%
Maryland 18%
Delaware 15%


Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

It seems that Minnesota is just as much of an outlier in judging the "Midwesterness" of a place as Missouri. Certainly Minnesota and Missouri are much more a like than say Maryland and Tennessee (two totally different type of states, but both are still very much Southern). While Missouri is more culturally (at least from a religious point of view) similar to Ohio, Indiana, and Kansas than any of them are to Minnesota or Illinois.

I think evangelicalism is on the decline in states that are becoming more diverse, more educated, and more urban, how else do you explain Florida, Texas, Virginia, North Carolina (former Confederate strong holds) becoming increasingly less evangelical? I would imagine if Missouri had experienced brisk Sunbelt type growth the last 20-30 years, it would also be much less evangelical. Would Missouri then become a more Northern state like Maryland?

Also an interesting side note. It seems that St. Louis is the 2nd most Catholic major metropolitan area in the Midwest outside of Chicago. Catholicism being considered a much more Northern or "Midwestern" religion than say Baptist/Evangelical, even though both religious sects are present in sizable numbers around the country. I think that goes to show how cultures are really hard to confine to man-made geographical boundaries and regional designations.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Baptist religious denomination plurality across most of northern Missouri, fried foods being very common, southern accents or drawls mixed in with less neutral lower Midwest speech patterns. A general slowness to everything, not really a Midwest work ethic like I'm used to seeing. Well below average median household incomes, above average poverty rates across the board, and very socially conservative. Basically, quite a bit like the South overall..
Drawls? I doubt that. Probably a twangy hillbilly Ozark sound. But a specific DRAWL like dog becoming doge or man becoming main are not features of most of Missouri White speech. There are high degrees of Appalachian tongue leftover in the Ozarks but no actual drawl.

Social conservatism is just a Middle American cultural facet. It isn't Southern by any means. Most of the rural US is this way and has nothing to do with identifying as Southern. Outside of the Great Lakes and large cities all or most of the rural Midwest is conservative. The same goes with being slow in pace. We're bumpkin Middle America not the I-95 corridor.

What exactly is a Midwestern work ethic? Anyway if you mean Missouri I can't speak on that but below I 70 I don't any change in work ethic. Hell people in Cincinnati are quite the workhorse types to me. But that's not Missouri so I will await your explanation on Missouri.

And honestly you described a lot of Indiana with your post but Indiana is quintessence of Midwest. It isn't anything but Midwestern and the stereotype of Hoosiers is very Midwestern and it seems by your post they'd fit quite well in Missouri.
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Old 11-23-2017, 09:29 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,840,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Evangelicals by State
Southern States = Red
Midwestern States = Black

Tennessee 52%
Alabama 49%
Kentucky 49%
Oklahoma 47%
Arkansas 46%
Mississippi 41%
West Virginia 39%
Georgia 38%

Missouri 36%
North Carolina 35%
South Carolina 35%

Kansas 31%
Indiana 31%
Texas 31%
Virginia 30%
Ohio 29%
Iowa 28%
Louisiana 27%
South Dakota 25%
Nebraska 25%
Michigan 25%
Florida 24%
Wisconsin 22%
North Dakota 22%
Illinois 20%
Minnesota 19%
Maryland 18%
Delaware 15%


Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

It seems that Minnesota is just as much of an outlier in judging the "Midwesterness" of a place as Missouri. Certainly Minnesota and Missouri are much more a like than say Maryland and Tennessee (two totally different type of states, but both are still very much Southern). While Missouri is more culturally (at least from a religious point of view) similar to Ohio, Indiana, and Kansas than any of them are to Minnesota or Illinois.

I think evangelicalism is on the decline in states that are becoming more diverse, more educated, and more urban, how else do you explain Florida, Texas, Virginia, North Carolina (former Confederate strong holds) becoming increasingly less evangelical? I would imagine if Missouri had experienced brisk Sunbelt type growth the last 20-30 years, it would also be much less evangelical. Would Missouri then become a more Northern state like Maryland?

Also an interesting side note. It seems that St. Louis is the 2nd most Catholic major metropolitan area in the Midwest outside of Chicago. Catholicism being considered a much more Northern or "Midwestern" religion than say Baptist/Evangelical, even though both religious sects are present in sizable numbers around the country. I think that goes to show how cultures are really hard to confine to man-made geographical boundaries and regional designations.
To be fair Minnesota isn't a typical Midwestern state in many ways. Largely Democrat (even outside of large city centers), largely Scandinavian (as opposed to the lack of Scandos in the Midwest and heavy German dominance), and it even has its own dialect, the North Central dialect which is quite distinct from the largely Midland/NCVS influenced rest of the Midwest.

Although ask many St. Louisans if their state is Southern and they regrettably say yes. But ask them if their city if Northern and they will happily say yes. St. Louisans are really just Chicagoans stuck in the wrong state and with a (sadly) superior baseball team. They identify more with St. Louis than with Missouri. Largely many of them hate being from Missouri the same way many Illinoisans despite Chicago being part of Illinois.
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Old 11-24-2017, 01:19 AM
 
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Even then, those numbers do NOT show that Minnesota is as much of an outlier as Missouri. Minnesota is closer to the mean, median, and mode for the Midwest than Missouri by a couple of percentage points (which isn't small when you look at the differences between all these states), whether or not you include Missouri and Minnesota in calculating the mean. In fact, Missouri is notably closer to the M/M/M for the South than it is to those of the Midwest. Also, yeah, and if Oklahoma, Alabama, Mississippi, and West Virginia had experienced Sunbelt growth like Texas, they would also be much less Evangelical, but thats sort of a moot point, seeing as it hasn't happened.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:04 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Drawls? I doubt that. Probably a twangy hillbilly Ozark sound. But a specific DRAWL like dog becoming doge or man becoming main are not features of most of Missouri White speech. There are high degrees of Appalachian tongue leftover in the Ozarks but no actual drawl.

Social conservatism is just a Middle American cultural facet. It isn't Southern by any means. Most of the rural US is this way and has nothing to do with identifying as Southern. Outside of the Great Lakes and large cities all or most of the rural Midwest is conservative. The same goes with being slow in pace. We're bumpkin Middle America not the I-95 corridor.

What exactly is a Midwestern work ethic? Anyway if you mean Missouri I can't speak on that but below I 70 I don't any change in work ethic. Hell people in Cincinnati are quite the workhorse types to me. But that's not Missouri so I will await your explanation on Missouri.

And honestly you described a lot of Indiana with your post but Indiana is quintessence of Midwest. It isn't anything but Midwestern and the stereotype of Hoosiers is very Midwestern and it seems by your post they'd fit quite well in Missouri.
You get a rural accent with southern influences in much of central Illinois and a southern accent in southern Illinois. I met a guy in law school from Harrisburg Illinois and I thought he was from Alabama or Mississippi. The last time I was in Benton Illinois the court clerk had a very southern drawl. I've spent less time in Indiana than Illinois but I get the impression southern Indiana is similar to southern Illinois. It might not be the south but you can sure see it from there.

As for Missouri, my state, it's hard to figure sometimes. Had a college frat bother from Moberly (north of 70) who spoke with what I would call a southern drawl -ditto for one from Jeff City - but I'm not a linguist. The guys from southwest Missouri had a distinctive accent - not southern exactly but southern influenced I would say. I've seen the stars and bars flying in southern Missouri but also rural Missouri near Mark Twain lake and also rural St. Charles County up by the Mississippi river.

A few years ago I spent significant time in southeast Missouri and I'm convinced the south starts in those 30 miles between Cape Girardeau and Sikeston. I was in the boot heel when the cotton was blooming with some ag engineers from Northern Indiana and they definitely thought we were in the South.

Last edited by MUTGR; 11-25-2017 at 08:15 PM..
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:39 PM
 
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Ehhhhh nobody in the 217 has a Southern influenced accent at all. Matter of fact, Chicago accent patterns follow interstate 55 down to St. Louis. Most Central Illinoisans sound mildly Northern to plain Middle American.

But the Sikeston - Cape Girardeau comment is accurate.

Also Southern influenced accents don't start in Indian until about mile 50 on 65 which means 50 miles north of Louisville. Even then they are only influenced. Far Southern Indiana like Jeffersonville even has less of a Southern accent than Louisville.

But MO is the most Southern state of the Midwest. Still Midwest though as the people who identify as Southern are comparable to Maryland (aka only a small percentage less than 50%). With this in mind there is no reason to put Missouri in the South.

Speaking of Maryland, do i think it should be put in the Northeast? No more than I think Atlanta should be in the Northeast. Being so transient in population has essentially made that state have a weak identity in region. Marylanders consider themselves Marylanders first and foremost. Their allegiance is neither to the North or South and I feel many of them don't get caught up in caring that their state is considered part of the Southeast. Latitudinally they are Southeast (the northernmost cutoff extends into latitudes around Philly). Attitude wise they don't seem too concerned they are considered Southern by a few outsiders. Even if many of them don't consider themselves Southern they recognize the history of their state and the culture that can be taken as Southern many times. Every Marylander I have met more so thinks that even if they are not Southern personally, they probably live in a Southern state and it doesn't bother them one bit.
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Poughkeepsie, New York
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Delaware should definitely be placed in the northeast, for various reasons.

Maryland is a bit more complex. On one hand, in terms of demographics (roughly 30% black), history (slave/Jim Crow state) and geographic location (South of the Mason-Dixon), it definitely fits in with the south. On the other hand, in terms of politics (solidly blue state), urban makeup (Baltimore more closely resembles cities such as Philadelphia, New York, and Boston, rather than Atlanta), and religion (small evangelical influence), it fits in more with the northeastern states.

I'd say it's a northeastern state with some southern characteristics, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:20 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
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For Missouri, once you reach Sikeston, you are completely in the south. Once you reach Oak Ridge (Northern Cape Girardeau County) you are solidly in the midwest. What is in the middle can go either way really.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:50 AM
 
Location: IN
20,846 posts, read 35,932,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB View Post
For Missouri, once you reach Sikeston, you are completely in the south. Once you reach Oak Ridge (Northern Cape Girardeau County) you are solidly in the midwest. What is in the middle can go either way really.
I wouldn’t say northern Cape Girardeau County is solidly Midwest, but it might appear that way if you compare it only directly to a rural Deep South Mississippi Delta. Cape Girardeau is mostly southern with some definite midwestern leanings if you compare it to the Midwest core or upper Midwest, however.
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