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Old 11-26-2017, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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MD, DE and WV are Mid-Atlantic. West Virginia seems like its the South but thats a spillover from Appalachia. Its just too far north. At some point, geography has got to override culture.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:18 PM
 
Location: SF, CA
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Originally Posted by TonyNY View Post
Delaware should definitely be placed in the northeast, for various reasons.

Maryland is a bit more complex. On one hand, in terms of demographics (roughly 30% black), history (slave/Jim Crow state) and geographic location (South of the Mason-Dixon), it definitely fits in with the south. On the other hand, in terms of politics (solidly blue state), urban makeup (Baltimore more closely resembles cities such as Philadelphia, New York, and Boston, rather than Atlanta), and religion (small evangelical influence), it fits in more with the northeastern states.

I'd say it's a northeastern state with some southern characteristics, but that's just my opinion.
Yes, Maryland is definitely Northeastern, and has been so for at least a century. Its population is predominantly urban, its economy is based on trade and manufacturing, and it votes deep-blue. In its major city, Baltimore, ethnic communities have been a big factor in history -- think of Little Italy, Greektown, Poletown, etc. -- just as they have in NY, Philly, and Boston. In the great northward migration of African-Americans, Baltimore and DC were destinations, not places to leave. And in a ranking of states by evangelicals as a percent of the population, Maryland is in the bottom ten (with about the same percentage as Vermont).

The Mason-Dixon line may have meant something before the Industrial Revolution, but in modern times the Potomac River is the boundary between North and South (or mid-Atlantic and South).

This seems quite obvious, so it's hard to understand why the question keeps arising...

[btw, in case it seems like I'm opining from afar, I lived in MD back in the late 70s-early 80s]
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NW4me View Post
Yes, Maryland is definitely Northeastern, and has been so for at least a century. Its population is predominantly urban, its economy is based on trade and manufacturing, and it votes deep-blue. In its major city, Baltimore, ethnic communities have been a big factor in history -- think of Little Italy, Greektown, Poletown, etc. -- just as they have in NY, Philly, and Boston. In the great northward migration of African-Americans, Baltimore and DC were destinations, not places to leave. And in a ranking of states by evangelicals as a percent of the population, Maryland is in the bottom ten (with about the same percentage as Vermont).

The Mason-Dixon line may have meant something before the Industrial Revolution, but in modern times the Potomac River is the boundary between North and South (or mid-Atlantic and South).

This seems quite obvious, so it's hard to understand why the question keeps arising...

[btw, in case it seems like I'm opining from afar, I lived in MD back in the late 70s-early 80s]
It's not that simple.

Maryland's White demographics may be more "ethnic" but the issue here is that if you look at nationwide numbers, those numbers are still rather low. The largest group of "ethnic" Whites are German and they are largely conservative. Italians, Jews, Poles are insignificant portions of the White population. Counties there that are largely White are still red counties.

Absent from Maryland are culturally significant White ethnic enclaves. For the most part you don't really have a strong Italian culture in Maryland the way you do in PA. Same with Latino groups. Maryland doesn't have a ton of Puerto Ricans or Dominicans the way the Philly- Boston corridor has.

I am not discounting your facts but rather positing that Maryland's Northeastern status is as disputable as the Southern one. It truly is a middle state in every form of the word. Even the accents of the state are largely very halfway between the South and the North. There is no "border" between North and South and if there is, the entire state of Maryland would be it. Maybe this is why it is called a border state after all.
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:40 PM
 
Location: West Tennessee
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Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
I wouldn’t say northern Cape Girardeau County is solidly Midwest, but it might appear that way if you compare it only directly to a rural Deep South Mississippi Delta. Cape Girardeau is mostly southern with some definite midwestern leanings if you compare it to the Midwest core or upper Midwest, however.
Well sure if you compare it to the upper midwest it is going to look southern, but so will lots of areas that definitely aren't southern. That area is a strange one in the sense that people that grew up right down the road from one another end up having a completely different cultural orientation due to their family history, religion, food & other things. Lots of Baptists & Pentecostals, but also lots of Lutherans & Catholics in Cape Girardeau County.

Both influences are present, but most people would tell you they consider themselves midwestern in the northern part of the county. With that being said, the same people also consider Memphis & Nashville to be part of the midwest & don't think that Midwestern & Southern are mutually exclusive, for whatever reason. I guess it is hard for some people wrap their head around the idea that a city less than 3 hours away is considered to be in a completely different region of the country by the Census Bureau.

Last edited by GunnerTHB; 11-26-2017 at 02:49 PM..
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
MD, DE and WV are Mid-Atlantic. West Virginia seems like its the South but thats a spillover from Appalachia. Its just too far north. At some point, geography has got to override culture.
Many West Virginia natives don't identify with the South. From what I understand it is less than half who consider themselves Southern.

Heck some of them remind me more of Pittsburgh people than of Southerners.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:38 PM
 
Location: SF, CA
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Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
It's not that simple.

Maryland's White demographics may be more "ethnic" but the issue here is that if you look at nationwide numbers, those numbers are still rather low. The largest group of "ethnic" Whites are German and they are largely conservative. Italians, Jews, Poles are insignificant portions of the White population. Counties there that are largely White are still red counties.

Absent from Maryland are culturally significant White ethnic enclaves. For the most part you don't really have a strong Italian culture in Maryland the way you do in PA. Same with Latino groups. Maryland doesn't have a ton of Puerto Ricans or Dominicans the way the Philly- Boston corridor has.

I am not discounting your facts but rather positing that Maryland's Northeastern status is as disputable as the Southern one. It truly is a middle state in every form of the word. Even the accents of the state are largely very halfway between the South and the North. There is no "border" between North and South and if there is, the entire state of Maryland would be it. Maybe this is why it is called a border state after all.
Can't agree.... whether you look at economics, politics or religion, Maryland has much more in common with the states to its north than those to its south... and that's to be expected, since it's part of the Boston - Washington metropolitan complex. I already mentioned its history as a trade and manufacturing economy... a natural outgrowth of that was financial services: Baltimore is the home of the T Rowe Price and Alex Brown investment firms, counterparts to Fidelity in Boston and Vanguard near Philly. I don't think you'll find firms like those based in Southern cities, because -- until quite recently -- the South just wasn't a financial center.

The white ethnic groups may not be huge as a percent of statewide population, but they've certainly played a role in Baltimore-area politics, and therefore helped decide which pols have gone on to the national scene: Spiro Agnew, for one. And Nancy Pelosi comes from Maryland's D'Alesandro family (her father and her brother both were mayors of Baltimore). And again, when it comes to presidential elections, Maryland is one of the bluest of the states.

On religion, I already noted that Maryland is in the bottom ten in evangelicals per-capita. However, it ranks in the top five in per-capita Jewish population, higher than Massachusetts or Connecticut and very un-Southern.


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Old 11-26-2017, 03:52 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,839,346 times
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Originally Posted by NW4me View Post
Can't agree.... whether you look at economics, politics or religion, Maryland has much more in common with the states to its north than those to its south... and that's to be expected, since it's part of the Boston - Washington metropolitan complex. I already mentioned its history as a trade and manufacturing economy... a natural outgrowth of that was financial services: Baltimore is the home of the T Rowe Price and Alex Brown investment firms, counterparts to Fidelity in Boston and Vanguard near Philly. I don't think you'll find firms like those based in Southern cities, because -- until quite recently -- the South just wasn't a financial center.

The white ethnic groups may not be huge as a percent of statewide population, but they've certainly played a role in Baltimore-area politics, and therefore helped decide which pols have gone on to the national scene: Spiro Agnew, for one. And Nancy Pelosi comes from Maryland's D'Alesandro family (her father and her brother both were mayors of Baltimore). And again, when it comes to presidential elections, Maryland is one of the bluest of the states.

On religion, I already noted that Maryland is in the bottom ten in evangelicals per-capita. However, it ranks in the top five in per-capita Jewish population, higher than Massachusetts or Connecticut and very un-Southern.


This is why I said Maryland is neither. Also, are we going to discount areas like the Eastern Shore? You can't say that Pennsylvania has an area where people largely identify as Southern.

Spiro Agnew was a conservative so there is that. I mean he certainly was not not very representative of the Northeast to be instrumental in implementing the Southern strategy. Nancy Pelosi is more in line with coastal politics. However I find it hard to see her as a Northerner when she talks the way she does (sounding like Miss Kay from Duck Dynasty).

Anyway, the state also is part of the Black Belt which no Northern state can lay claim to. So there is that. Also Arabbers in Baltimore are largest very Southern in culture. It isn't as easy as you think it is. Lots of people who are Maryland liberals also work in DC and aren't natives.

But the history of toe state means it has never leaned one way or another.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,320 posts, read 2,744,534 times
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Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Many West Virginia natives don't identify with the South. From what I understand it is less than half who consider themselves Southern.

Heck some of them remind me more of Pittsburgh people than of Southerners.
That's not true. You are thinking of the Southern Focus Poll which asked 8 West Virginians each year if they were southern.


"We asked survey respondents where they lived and then asked if they identified as Southern. Of course, the people most likely to identify themselves as Southern lived in the Southern states, but it may surprise you to learn that about half of Floridians donít consider themselves Southern. West Virginians were more likely to identify as Southern than their Virginia counterparts (even though the states are side by side). As well, you can find a decent number of Southerners as far north as New Hampshire and Washington."


https://www.twiddy.com/southern-charm/
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:00 PM
 
Location: SF, CA
1,508 posts, read 677,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
This is why I said Maryland is neither. Also, are we going to discount areas like the Eastern Shore? You can't say that Pennsylvania has an area where people largely identify as Southern.

Spiro Agnew was a conservative so there is that. I mean he certainly was not not very representative of the Northeast to be instrumental in implementing the Southern strategy. Nancy Pelosi is more in line with coastal politics. However I find it hard to see her as a Northerner when she talks the way she does (sounding like Miss Kay from Duck Dynasty).

Anyway, the state also is part of the Black Belt which no Northern state can lay claim to. So there is that. Also Arabbers in Baltimore are largest very Southern in culture. It isn't as easy as you think it is. Lots of people who are Maryland liberals also work in DC and aren't natives.

But the history of toe state means it has never leaned one way or another.
No two states are identitical... but if you're going to arrange them in groups (the original premise of this thread, remember) the sensible thing to do is to put a state like Maryland in with the group it resembles most closely. I think I've shown that there are many reasons (economy, religion, politics) why Maryland resembles the states to the north much more than the ones to the south.

And the underlying reason for most of those characteristics is that Maryland was and is a very urban state. If you look for other states historically dominated by their big metro areas, the easiest example is Massachusetts. There is no comparable Southern state.

There are different definitions of the Black Belt, so I don't know whether it really includes Maryland.
Baltimore is a black-majority city. But so is Newark. And Philly is not far from being black-majority.

And those out-of-state liberals who work in DC and reside in the MD suburbs? Yes, it's a cosmopolitan area that draws people from all over the country and the world. Who said they have to be native-born to be Marylanders?

Sure, the non-urban areas of the state, like the Eastern Shore, are different from the urban core. But if we're deciding which region the state belongs to, the proper way to do that is to go by the characteristics of the places where the vast majority of the population lives. For Maryland, that means the Baltimore metro area and the DC suburbs. The 'country' parts of the state are different from the cities, but that's how it is everywhere.
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Maryland is more northern than southern culturally and has been for a long time. But being "northern" doesn't mean "Northeast", as there are plenty of northern states from Ohio to Washington that aren't in the Northeast. Maybe I'm a product of where I grew up (Northern Virginia) and of being a former resident of New York, but I can never view Maryland as Northeast. It's distinctively different in a myriad of ways from what I consider Northeast...

An argument can be made that geographically, Maryland is in the Northeast, and I guess a geographic argument is valid. As is an argument that Maryland, even outside the Eastern Shore, still has vestiges of southern culture. But ultimately to me, Maryland is a northern state, as is Iowa, but isn't in the Northeast...

Delaware is so closely aligned to Philadelphia and Jersey, it has to be considered Northeast. There is little reasonable argument for calling Delaware a southern state...

West Virginia is a southern state. The northern quarter of the state has interior Northeast vibes, but is ultimately an outlier in a majority southern state...

Virginia is a southern state but 75% of the population lives in the Northern Virginia-Greater Richmond-Hampton Roads urban crescent, an area that I wouldn't call northern but us certainly removed from the typical contemporary South. That crescent is the most southern-lite area in the entire South----yes, obvious signs of "I'm in the South" exist, but as the crescent grows ever more entertwined with the Northeast Corridor, a more neutral atmosphere is in its place. There will alwaus be the Confederate history that people will point to, to keep Virginia in the South, but at this point, it's 50/50 culturally within the crescent from a South/northern perspective (NoVa is 80/20 removed from the South with the other two more southern, bit make no mistake, there is nowhere else in the South as non-southern as Richmond or Hampton Roads)...

Outside of the urban Virginia NoVa-Richmond-Tidewater crescent, the remaining 25% of Virginia's population lives in the 75% remaining land area, and that populous is fully and unquestionably southern. That land area (over 29,000 square miles) is larger than the land area of both West Virginia and Maryland and almost larger than both combined, and because if that, is easy for people to classify Virginia as southern...
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