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Old 11-17-2014, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,629,011 times
Reputation: 4141

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irene-cd View Post
I work with science (I physics and chemistry) and what you're saying is false, as a scientist of 14 years I can assure you there is no scientific evidence that proves races exist, much less scientific evidence that proves people are more intelligent according to their origin.
If you read what Buffalo said carefully, the post did not theorize about what causes the difference, only that it exists.

You are also conflating the issue of whether "races" in the common sense of the term exist, and whether there is any genetic basis for intelligence. Those two may be related, but one does not determine the other.

You cannot take "any child" and "teach him to place huge importance on learning and studying" and end up with a genius. Many children do not reach their capacity due to environmental factors, but that is not the same as saying that every child is born with the same potential.

What we call intelligence may be partly subjective; but that doesn't mean we can't measure competence in certain skills that give an approximate estimate of what most people mean by "intelligence."

You may be great in physics and chemistry but your logic is a bit sloppy.

Last edited by djacques; 11-17-2014 at 04:19 AM..
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:22 AM
 
1,689 posts, read 2,231,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
If you read what Buffalo said carefully, the post did not theorize about what causes the difference, only that it exists.
The post did not theorize it directly, but the author does not need to be direct about it, it is obvious that his claim has to do with the imaginary social concept of ethnicity and race.
IE: He mentions Ashkenazis being notoriously intelligent over the rest of humanity, and then gives a mean score for the IQ reached by Caucasians (a term no longer used in social sciences) in US standardized tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
You are also conflating the issue of whether "races" in the common sense of the term exist, and whether there is any genetic basis for intelligence. Those two may be related, but one does not determine the other.
Race is a mere social construct and in different cultures is interpreted differently, it all goes back to humans being social hierarchical creatures, thus we have the innate need to classify and rank ourselves according to the role we play in the societies in which we live, that doesn't mean race exists.... from a scientific standpoint if science cannot prove a claim in an objective manner over and over and over, then it's not science! And science cannot prove races exist, and it has been tried in the field of genetics but the conclusions are always the same, we all share the same genetic make up with extremely small differences (so small it's counted in chemical "Moles" and using scientific notation)

As far as IQ and race, the American obsession with standardized testing has created the belief in the general populi that certain ethnic groups are smarter than others (not understanding that ethnicity is subjective not objective) and that the basis for such claims are mostly based on ridiculous standardized test scores.

A human's cognitive development is related to that human's access to good schools, nutrition, parenting, not really genes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
You cannot take "any child" and "teach him to place huge importance on learning and studying" and end up with a genius. Many children do not reach their capacity due to environmental factors, but that is not the same as saying that every child is born with the same potential.
I didn't say anything different from what you're saying, what are you refuting exactly?
Any child can be brought up to value education, and yes it's common sense that environment has an effect on a child development, but we're not discussing children development here, are we? I said any child can be taught to place emphasis on education meaning any child born in the right conditions.

By the way, a visit to Israel will prove a lot of Jewish are also high school drops outs, and a lot of Jewish drink alcohol and a low of Jewish live in poverty and don't care about school etc. (humans with human issues), just because a lot of the wealthiest Jewish elites live in the US and are on average highly educated does not mean every single Jewish person around the world is gifted by nature with an extraordinary degree of intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
You may be great in physics and chemistry but your logic is a bit sloppy.
So you managed to evaluate the way my mind operates based on a comment? A bit judgmental, aren't we? That speaks more about your critical thinking skills than anything else.
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,629,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irene-cd View Post
I didn't say anything different from what you're saying, what are you refuting exactly?
You said, emphasis added, "You can take any child and teach him to place huge importance on learning and studying and they'll become doctors, lawyers, surgeons and more!!! There is nothing genetic about it."

So, since there is nothing genetic about it, will a population that has, say, a 5% higher than average incidence of trisomy-21 have the same intelligence measurements as the population at large?
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:17 AM
 
1,689 posts, read 2,231,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
You said, emphasis added, "You can take any child and teach him to place huge importance on learning and studying and they'll become doctors, lawyers, surgeons and more!!! There is nothing genetic about it."

So, since there is nothing genetic about it, will a population that has, say, a 5% higher than average incidence of trisomy-21 have the same intelligence measurements as the population at large?
When I say you can take ANY child and teach him/her and so on, I mean any average child without disabilities that might affect the child's cognitive development.

(skin color, religion "Judaism", national origin, and more are irrelevant in a person's cognitive development)
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:02 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 3,731,432 times
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I think the Jews and the Scots are the most successful ethnic groups per capita.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,476 posts, read 11,975,150 times
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I've long been suspect of the idea of continental-wide differences in intelligence, largely because over the centuries being bright would put one at a comparative advantage of reproducing anywhere. E.G., if you're naturally smart due to biological reasons, you'll be better at figuring out how to survive and provide for your children in Africa, Asia, or Europe. And on a continent-wide basis over the centuries empires grow and decline, and the climate improves and then becomes poor, meaning the natural selection that humans operated under in each culture would not be static.

That said, I think arguments towards Ashkenazic Jews having higher intelligence than the norm are actually different from arguments about racial differences in intelligence more generally. It's not an argument about heightened "racial intelligence" of Jews in general. Modern-day genetics has pretty much proven that Ashkenazim have their origin around 2,000 years ago, when Middle-Eastern men took wives from Italy and (to a lesser extent) the south of France. Meaning we're only talking about a drift of centuries here.

The argument here is basically twofold. One, Jews in the Middle Ages were expected to be literate and learned, whereas there was no such expectation put upon Christians. Second, most occupations which were not white-collar were barred to them. In particular, Jews were forced into finance-related jobs in the Middle Ages, because at the time (similar to modern-day Muslims) Christians considered it immoral to charge interest, but banking cannot operate efficiently without it. So until the renaissance, when the Italians finally started setting up their own banks, the Ashkenazi basically were the bankers of all of Europe.

As the only occupations available to Jews in Europe were "knowledge" jobs, those who were naturally smarter would excel at them, be able to have more children, and be able to provide for those children better). In contrast, those who weren't so bright would proportionately have fewer children. In addition, those who didn't fit into the intellectual bent of Ashkenazi culture could always convert out. Ultimately though the Ashkenazi had such high birth rates compared to the gentile population (or, indeed, that of Jews elsewhere in the world) that by the modern era there were millions of poor Jews in Eastern Europe.

In contrast, Jews elsewhere in the world tended to have "blue-collar" positions. And there is no evidence through testing that their IQs are any higher than the populations they lived alongside. Instead you see other groups (Arab Christians in parts of the Near East, Parsis in India, etc) who took on the social role that the Ashkenazim did in Europe.

Do I think this is the truth? I'm not sure. But I find it a lot more plausible than most arguments for differences in intelligence between continent-wide racial groupings, because the conditions actually existed over centuries to select for higher intelligence, and European Jews were a social class within the wider society who didn't "outbreed" very much at all after their founding.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:49 AM
 
11,194 posts, read 22,419,385 times
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I mean doesn't it depend on the person/family?

I know a lot of Jewish people in Chicago, many of them are my best friends, and then being "jewish" is the same to everyone else as me being "swedish" or my boyfriend being "polish". It's just your heritage, but no one cares at all outside that, including the jewish friends. Yes, they're Jewish, but there's nothing about them being Jewish that makes them stand out from my family being Swedish and historically Christian.

None of us are religious in the slightest, we think the whole concept is silly, including my family and the families of almost all my friends.

We'll tease my jewish friends about jewish things just being silly, and they tease themselves about it more than we ever do, the same as we tease my polish friends with polish jokes or people make wise-cracks about me being from Iowa or my other friends for being lesbians. It's all out of love and laughter, no serious slights intended.
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:56 AM
 
56,867 posts, read 81,192,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawaii4evr View Post
Depends. There are a lot of Jews who aren't White (North African/Middle Eastern Jews, Jews from Ethiopia and Uganda, converts of different races). People in the West, particularly the US, tend to forget that Ashkenazi Jews aren't the only kinds of Jews that exist.

^This, as there are Jews of different racial groups and this has been the case for centuries. Beta Israel comes to mind immediately as well.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:04 AM
 
4,539 posts, read 4,853,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
People often identify Jews as a separate demographic, but are they really different from mainstream White America?

Saw a bunch of Othodox Jews at bowing alley Saturday night near me bowling in the black suits with suit jacket on. Looked cool.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:13 AM
 
Location: USA
8,016 posts, read 9,508,452 times
Reputation: 3411
so you can tell a jew from any other white person?
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