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I lived on Lodi Street in Hawley-Green. My landlord was one of the most outright racist people I"ve met in my life, going on and on about how she doesn't rent to "those people" or how you can't trust Muslims. In the building next to me there were a bunch of SU grad students who were scared to death to go out at night because it was a majority black neighborhood. One-by-one they'd leave and move to Westcott. Whenever I'd meet people from other parts of the city, they'd be shocked whenever I said I lived in Hawley-Green. The response was always, "You live there?" I've never felt unsafe in Hawley-Green, but because it's a mostly black neighborhood people think it must be bad.
The racist guy I dated lived in Eastwood, near Burnet and Stafford, though he was originally from a town about ten miles south of Utica. That guy and his roommate would make racist comment about Asian, Jews, Mexicans, Blacks etc. They'd have a nickname for their dog, which was the n-word followed by a part of the dog's body. I took great pride in breaking up with that a-hole.
I remember riding in a car with a friend. We were going to Singer's in Solvay, and we saw a black person riding a bike down the road. That incited a racist comment by my friend's mother's boyfriend, and when then sparked an incredibly racist conversation by all in the car.
A friend of mine still in Syracuse called me in tears two nights ago because he was so disturbed by the racist comments his co-workers have been making due to the whole situation in Ferguson.
Minnesota outside the Twin Cities has its problems too. Northern Minnesota is not as bad as St. Cloud or areas of Southeast Minnesota. Because the economy is better in Minnesota, there is less tension overall, including racial tension. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Minnesotans are scared to death of saying anything that could potentially be perceived as negative to anyone. Though racism and homophobia certainly does exists in Minnesota (cough, cough, Michele Bachmann), from my experience, people there are more likely to keep those kind of things to themselves.
I have been to Ithaca. It is very nice. I'm a city person, and I wouldn't want to live in a place so isolated, but otherwise it's a wonderful town. I absolutely adore Buffalo, too, but a lot Upstate New York is a very scary place.
Actually, Hawley-Green isn't a mostly Black neighborhood and is a very mixed neighborhood, with a history of having prostitution and drugs. It is somewhat gentrified now though. I wouldn't doubt if the lady is from the old time ethnic days of the North Side, when it was a very Italian area of the city. So, old thoughts of the area may persist. If anything, Westcott would have been a better fit for what you are looking for. Syracuse's Blackest neighborhoods are on the South Side and East Side, with quite a few Black folks in the inner West and North Sides. Outer neighborhoods on the South and East Sides will have more middle and even upper middle class Black residents into adjacent suburbs like DeWitt and Nedrow. Some live in the Northern, Eastern and increasingly in select Western suburban areas. Personally, if you are Black and want the city, I'd go with the East Side from Syracuse University east and adjacent DeWitt if you want the suburbs. The Liverpool area and parts of the North Syracuse SD area wouldn't be bad in terms of suburbs either. Nedrow, the only suburb to the south is in a solid/good SD and also has a relatively high Native American population. It has a more rural feel in parts and may appeal to some as well.
Again, racist people are everywhere and Upstate NY is not a scary place. Again, Solvay is a blue collar suburb known for its strong Italian ethnic character. It is slowly, but surely becoming more diverse, but it isn't any different than what you may get in similar communities. Ten miles south of Utica is very rural and I don't think it would be any different in a similar environment in MI or MN. I also guess you haven't read comments about Ferguson on various forum here on city-data, which again aren't much different. Sad, but true.
Buffalo is probably worse than Syracuse in terms of attitudes and Ithaca, while more isolated, is very cosmopolitan and urban within a smaller package/footprint. Rochester actually has the census tract with the highest percentage of same sex households in Upstate NY and is urban. Albany's Lark Street is known for its LGBT presence. Pretty much any metro of a decent size will have an LGBT presence somewhere. So, it may be a matter of knowing where to go/look.
Northern Minnesota may not be as tense, because it just isn't that diverse outside of maybe Duluth and towns/small cities with a Native American population.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 11-28-2014 at 11:46 AM..
Actually, Hawley-Green isn't a mostly Black neighborhood and is a very mixed neighborhood, with a history of having prostitution and drugs. It is somewhat gentrified now though. I wouldn't doubt if the lady is from the old time ethnic days of the North Side, when it was a very Italian area of the city. So, old thoughts of the area may persist. If anything, Westcott would have been a better fit for what you are looking for. Syracuse's Blackest neighborhoods are on the South Side and East Side, with quite a few Black folks in the inner West and North Sides. Outer neighborhoods on the South and East Sides will have more middle and even upper middle class Black residents into adjacent suburbs like DeWitt and Nedrow. Some live in the Northern, Eastern and increasingly in select Western suburban areas. Personally, if you are Black and want the city, I'd go with the East Side from Syracuse University east and adjacent DeWitt if you want the suburbs. The Liverpool area and parts of the North Syracuse SD area wouldn't be bad in terms of suburbs either. Nedrow, the only suburb to the south is in a solid/good SD and also has a relatively high Native American population. It has a more rural feel in parts and may appeal to some as well.
Again, racist people are everywhere and Upstate NY is not a scary place. Again, Solvay is a blue collar suburb known for its strong Italian ethnic character. It is slowly, but surely becoming more diverse, but it isn't any different than what you may get in similar communities. Ten miles south of Utica is very rural and I don't think it would be any different in a similar environment in MI or MN. I also guess you haven't read comments about Ferguson on various forum here on city-data, which again aren't much different. Sad, but true.
Buffalo is probably worse than Syracuse in terms of attitudes and Ithaca, while more isolated, is very cosmopolitan and urban within a smaller package/footprint. Rochester actually has the census tract with the highest percentage of same sex households in Upstate NY and is urban. Albany's Lark Street is known for its LGBT presence. Pretty much any metro of a decent size will have an LGBT presence somewhere. So, it may be a matter of knowing where to go/look.
Northern Minnesota may not be as tense, because it just isn't that diverse outside of maybe Duluth and towns/small cities with a Native American population.
Just curious what you meant by that? I know the topic of racism and homophobia is prevalent in this discussion, but I don't find Buffalo to be racist or homophobic at all. Having lived here all my life I have of course come across some bigoted people here and there, but on a whole I don't think Buffalo is racist or homophobic.
Just curious what you meant by that? I know the topic of racism and homophobia is prevalent in this discussion, but I don't find Buffalo to be racist or homophobic at all. Having lived here all my life I have of course come across some bigoted people here and there, but on a whole I don't think Buffalo is racist or homophobic.
I don't think it is pervasive in either area to the degree it is made out to be, but I am thinking in terms of housing patterns in regards to segregation. What people don't think of though, is that housing in many Northeastern and Midwestern areas can be as much ethnic as it is racial and even that isn't as cut and dry.
Yeah, it has to do with people looking at stats and going with hunches instead of having any on-the-ground experiences.
MN/WI/MI are brothers. Take Detroit out of the mix, and I would question the sanity of every single person voting NY. I can see that the topic of the city of Detroit would potentially make this a closer poll, but even with that said, it's still MN.
I also think people are forgetting that Michigan is 2 landmasses, with the UP geologically/culturally in the Canadian Sheild along with northern WI & MN. The northwoods cultures are about as close as you can get across state lines. Even the top half of the mitten is strongly reminiscent of the top half of MN.
Nearly 50% of Michigan's population lives in the Detroit CSA so that's a pretty big chunk of the start's population you're not counting. Detroit's CSA is also pretty much equivalent to the total population of Minnesota. So removing Detroit out of the mix makes it an apples to oranges comparison.
Otherwise you're just comparing rural areas to rural areas which aren't going to have very large differences across great areas to begin with. The major cities are where most of the cultural representatives (and where most people come across them) exist for each state/region.
Three words: lake effect snow.
Both also have mild summers and gloomy winters.
Tornados are rare in Michigan and New York, but fairly common in Minnesota.
Both are know for cherries and apples.
Both are economically depressed.
Both are very Catholic and very Polish.
Both have very few, if any, Lutherans.
The people in Michigan and New York seem to be more reserved and less outgoing than those in Minnesota.
While both are Democratic, Michigan and Upstate New York reflect a populist, blue-collar version of liberalism that is lacking in Minnesota.
Both have a similar accents.
Both are completely wooded, while Minnesota is mostly prairie.
Sorry, but a few mistakes here, IMO:
Michigan would have Lutherans from its German immigrant population ( at least some);
I would not call Minnesotans "outgoing"--think Lake Wobegon, the movie "Fargo", and that stoic Scandinavian heritage;
Much of central and northern Minnesota is heavily forested; the farmland is largely in southern ( corn) and western ( wheat) areas of the state..
Minnesota is also the home of the very progressive/populist DFL party ( Democrats), known as the Democratic Farm-Labor group ( think Humphrey, Mondale, Wendell Anderson, Paul Wellstone, Al Franken, etc)...
Having lived in Minnesota and Upstate New York, I disagree.
I think that since Downstate New York is so radically liberal, people forget about how socially conservative Upstate New York really is. I've never encountered more racism anywhere than in Syracuse. I couldn't stand all the s*** that would come out of people's mouths in all-white spaces. I had a racist landlord, a racist boss, racist neighbors, a racist (now ex--thank God) boyfriend. It was everywhere, and it was disgusting. Though I've never lived in Michigan, I'd be shocked if racism were worse there. I really hope to God I'm not wrong, because that would be very sad.
In terms of homophobia, I have one gay friend from a town near Watertown, NY who was beaten by his dad when he came out. I have a friend from a town near Seneca Falls, NY whom a co-worker once tried to run off the road for being gay. Another friend from Cortland, NY was kicked out of his house as a teen and was homeless for two years for being gay. Again, I've never seen homophobia like this elsewhere, and I'd be surprised if things were worse in Michigan. In regards to other issues like marijuana, the prison industrial complex, welfare, education, affirmative action, gun rights, climate change, etc. Upstate New York seemed very conservative, just as much (if not more so) as Michigan. Yes, Western Michigan is staunchly conservative, but so are pockets of Upstate New York.
Oh my gosh, that's awful! Really puts things in perspective for me. Was thinking about moving to upstate NY, now I'm not so sure.
Oh my gosh, that's awful! Really puts things in perspective for me. Was thinking about moving to upstate NY, now I'm not so sure.
Ithaca's great, as are parts of Rochester, Buffalo, and Albany. It's mostly Syracuse, Utica, and the more rural areas around them that I'd avoid. The cost of living is cheap, though. There's amazing farmer's markets, fresh produce, and the countryside is gorgeous. I also miss being a short drive from Montreal.
Ithaca's great, as are parts of Rochester, Buffalo, and Albany. It's mostly Syracuse, Utica, and the more rural areas around them that I'd avoid. The cost of living is cheap, though. There's amazing farmer's markets, fresh produce, and the countryside is gorgeous. I also miss being a short drive from Montreal.
Okay, well I was looking at Buffalo and Rochester, so I won't them out just yet.
Having lived in Minnesota and Upstate New York, I disagree.
I think that since Downstate New York is so radically liberal, people forget about how socially conservative Upstate New York really is. I've never encountered more racism anywhere than in Syracuse. I couldn't stand all the s*** that would come out of people's mouths in all-white spaces. I had a racist landlord, a racist boss, racist neighbors, a racist (now ex--thank God) boyfriend. It was everywhere, and it was disgusting. Though I've never lived in Michigan, I'd be shocked if racism were worse there. I really hope to God I'm not wrong, because that would be very sad.
In terms of homophobia, I have one gay friend from a town near Watertown, NY who was beaten by his dad when he came out. I have a friend from a town near Seneca Falls, NY whom a co-worker once tried to run off the road for being gay. Another friend from Cortland, NY was kicked out of his house as a teen and was homeless for two years for being gay. Again, I've never seen homophobia like this elsewhere, and I'd be surprised if things were worse in Michigan. In regards to other issues like marijuana, the prison industrial complex, welfare, education, affirmative action, gun rights, climate change, etc. Upstate New York seemed very conservative, just as much (if not more so) as Michigan. Yes, Western Michigan is staunchly conservative, but so are pockets of Upstate New York.
Racism in Michigan is more pronounced in the rural areas than it is in the cities at least in my experience. I had a Hispanic acquaintance who lived in the Thumb region of Michigan and said it was pretty bad for him. I don't know about the west side of Michigan, but the Hispanic population feels pretty small in Metro Detroit. Southwest Detroit is really only where there seems like a concentration of them but for the most part they seem to exist in the community with minimal problems if only a lack of representation in politics. It's only with the most recent elections that a Hispanic woman was voted into city-council but I attribute that totally to the city adopting a district voting system instead of a city-wide election.
Arabs face quite a bit of racism and seem more prominent across the Metro. They mainly own a lot of the convenience stores and of course get talked about pretty badly post-9/11. You can find plenty of hijab and turban around Detroit and especially in Dearborn and Hamtramck and from my arabic friends, they get some amount of racism for it. Historically, Dearborn used to be a lot worse and most any minorities used to be treated pretty badly. Lately, things have improved, but there's always an incident every once in a while where someone spews out with a case of Islamaphobia.
Between Blacks and Whites, I think it's mostly good relations. Although the metro is still pretty divided between a majority black city and majority white suburbs, most middle class blacks have moved into the suburbs and there seems to be few if any incidents regarding that. Although Southfield, for a time, was getting the rep as a bad suburb because it became majority black. It seemed like everyone thought it was becoming a ghetto. While the city has declined somewhat from its peak prosperity, that has more to do with businesses migrating back into the city than it does any demographic shift, imho.
Homophobia doesn't seem particularly strong here, although there was an incident at this summer's past Gay Pride festival where a group of thugs tried to beat up a guy there (who also was black). It was also just after around the same time a few whites guys got jumped in Detroit, one for accidentally hitting a kid who jumped in front of his car (he stopped afterwards and went to check on the kid) and another for accidentally crashing into another car after turning the wrong way down a one way street. Although, I attribute all three incidents to actions of street criminals rather than anything specifically race motivated. Otherwise, the city has had an openly gay council member, although he did face some allegations of sexual abuse towards some young guys that were working for him (as well as leisurely spending city money).
Southeast Michigan feels a little liberal socially. It's more conservative economically at least in contrast to Detroit proper. The suburbs tend to be pretty split in most elections.
Having lived in Minnesota and Upstate New York, I disagree.
I think that since Downstate New York is so radically liberal, people forget about how socially conservative Upstate New York really is. I've never encountered more racism anywhere than in Syracuse. I couldn't stand all the s*** that would come out of people's mouths in all-white spaces. I had a racist landlord, a racist boss, racist neighbors, a racist (now ex--thank God) boyfriend. It was everywhere, and it was disgusting. Though I've never lived in Michigan, I'd be shocked if racism were worse there. I really hope to God I'm not wrong, because that would be very sad.
In terms of homophobia, I have one gay friend from a town near Watertown, NY who was beaten by his dad when he came out. I have a friend from a town near Seneca Falls, NY whom a co-worker once tried to run off the road for being gay. Another friend from Cortland, NY was kicked out of his house as a teen and was homeless for two years for being gay. Again, I've never seen homophobia like this elsewhere, and I'd be surprised if things were worse in Michigan. In regards to other issues like marijuana, the prison industrial complex, welfare, education, affirmative action, gun rights, climate change, etc. Upstate New York seemed very conservative, just as much (if not more so) as Michigan. Yes, Western Michigan is staunchly conservative, but so are pockets of Upstate New York.
In terms of reserved mannerisms, Minnesotans are reserved with their emotions, but are otherwise outgoing with other people. If you were to move to a new neighborhood in Minnesota, your neighbors would promptly introduce themselves to you, welcome you, buy you a beer, bake you a pie, or chat you up about the weather, yet they'll never say anything negative about you to your face. Your next-door neighbors might seem like the perfect couple, until they divorce out of the blue. Your Minnesotan souse might tell you that s/he loves you after you've been together for five decades. Minnesotans don't like talking about the mushy stuff or anything that would make them seem vulnerable, but they do talk to strangers and they do play well with others. Whereas in Upstate New York (again, the polar opposite of Downstate New York) the people are extremely aloof. They will not talk to you, will not make eye contact with you in public, and will not say hi to you when walking down the street (even if they know you). That said, I've met a lot of incredibly kind Upstate New Yorkers, but they are far from an outgoing people. While Michiganders, from my experience, are not as aloof as Upstate New Yorkers, I still find them more aloof and less outgoing than Minnesotans.
The way you describe Minnesotans and their tendencies to be reserved with emotions but otherwise friendly is exactly the same in Michigan. I have never lived in NY or knew anyone from there, so I guess I have no idea about their nature in that respect. I have heard they are reserved, but did not know that meant actually cold and aloof. You will not find that in Michigan. That must be the difference between the Midwest and the northeast you are seeing. As far as feelings about minorities and gays, well I don't think you'd find that kind of thing you saw in NY in Michigan either. Being socially conservative does not mean outright discrimination and racism. Michigan overall does not approve of homosexuality, that fact is enshrined in its law defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. However you don't hear that many stories of outright aggression toward gays, or any effort to harm them. There is a bit of a "live and let live" attitude in Michigan regarding that, at least as long as the issue is not pushed. There is racial tension in Michigan, but no more or less than in other places. Another poster did bring up the Arab thing, with a large population there it has caused resentment. This only became an issue after 9-11. In short that problem is related to the war and to 9-11. If our relationship with the middle east ever improves, so will that problem. The kind of hatred you describe in upstate NY however is hard to find in the Midwest. Im actually surprised upstate NY is like that, I really did not know it was.
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