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Of course there will be variation due to Western/Western Hemispheric influences/histories, but by and large, the people come from the same/similar Western African origins.
I was part of a group of Nigerians and we were talking about their perceptions of the people of African descent who are descended from enslaved people.
They said that West Indians are "lost Africans," meaning that we no longer had an identity based on an ethnic group (if you don't know how important this is to Africans, then you don't know them. Also having lost the languages, dress, and most of the traditions.
However they that there was much that is "African" in their mannerisms, music, dance, and even linguistic systems. The creoles are closer in grammatical structure and shape to the linguistic systems of the Akan and Igbo people than what happens in the USA, the obvious exception being the Gullah people who speech reflects a "Caribbean", rather than a "black" American shape.
I asked about black Americans. They all laughed and said that they are completely different. They don't understand them and that there is nothing about them that is remotely African.
I didn't get into Afro Latinos because Africans know little of them, beyond the survival of Yoruba religions in Brazil and Cuba. That however isn't enough to excite the average Nigerian.
So the bond that connects is long gone, hence the tensions which we have when we interface for the first time.
AAs from the Midwest and the South have a tough time dealing with Caribbean and Africans. Those from cities like NYC of DC, less so. as they have more exposure, so a greater understanding of the fact that a common phenotype doesn't mean that we see life the same way.
In fact several AA friends have told me jokes about how their relatives react to black immigrants when they come to visit NYC. Usually of the "how come they look black, but they aren't "black"?"
I was part of a group of Nigerians and we were talking about their perceptions of the people of African descent who are descended from enslaved people.
They said that West Indians are "lost Africans," meaning that we no longer had an identity based on an ethnic group (if you don't know how important this is to Africans, then you don't know them. Also having lost the languages, dress, and most of the traditions.
However they that there was much that is "African" in their mannerisms, music, dance, and even linguistic systems. The creoles are closer in grammatical structure and shape to the linguistic systems of the Akan and Igbo people than what happens in the USA, the obvious exception being the Gullah people who speech reflects a "Caribbean", rather than a "black" American shape.
I asked about black Americans. They all laughed and said that they are completely different. They don't understand them and that there is nothing about them that is remotely African.
I didn't get into Afro Latinos because Africans know little of them, beyond the survival of Yoruba religions in Brazil and Cuba. That however isn't enough to excite the average Nigerian.
So the bond that connects is long gone, hence the tensions which we have when we interface for the first time.
AAs from the Midwest and the South have a tough time dealing with Caribbean and Africans. Those from cities like NYC of DC, less so. as they have more exposure, so a greater understanding of the fact that a common phenotype doesn't mean that we see life the same way.
In fact several AA friends have told me jokes about how their relatives react to black immigrants when they come to visit NYC. Usually of the "how come they look black, but they aren't "black"?"
I think a part of the problem is that a lot of people, including some AA, don't understand how diverse the experience has been in the US and that there are aspects that have been retained, if you are privy to them. Music, dance, some aspects of worship, some food, some hairstyles and even some dialects are still present among AA's.
I also find it interesting that AA's from the South would have issues given that it is the part of the US where a person is most likely to see the aspects I mentioned above, whether they are conscious of them or not.
I also find it interesting that "Nigerians" had that view of AA's given that it is most likely where a substantial percentage of AA's descend from. If I'm not mistaken, about a quarter of enslaved Africans that were sent to the US were Igbo and the coast of modern day Nigeria was called the Slave Coast. It may also be the fact that people from various Western African groups were enslaved and brought to the Western Hemisphere, as well as other groups mixed in. Hence, the reaction of those Nigerians.
No this is the problem. We are not the same because when we were dropped off in different stops we had different experiences and therefore became different people. And those who remained in Africa didn't undergo the stresses of slavery and all its contribution to the varies pathologies which exist among the descendants of slaves.
This is why the tensions exist. AAs lived through a horrendous form of Jim Crow, de facto in the North, de jure in the South, so evolved as a people with a highly developed sense of their race (across the skin color spectrum) and a well developed ability to mobilize along racial lines to fight discrimination. Though some will argue that this mobilization is now sharply reduced, as blacks now polarize around class more than they used to, as the upper black middle class achieves access to opportunity denied to the black poor.
In the Caribbean where blacks were 90% of the population, a different structure emerged. CLASS, using skin color as a barometer, became more salient than race. So Caribbean blacks don't have the same sharp awareness of race and in fact mobilize around their nationality.
We then have the situation in Latin America, where it gets even more complex, but suffice to say that a black Cuban, despite being highly aware that he is black, will identify more with a white Cuban than he will with a black American.
So when a new black immigrant meets with an AA then tensions emerge. It is only after living in the USA, developing more of an understanding of the complexities of race in this country. And most importantly, getting to know that not all AAs carry the "hate whitey syndrome" and that many/most feel that they are personally responsible for their outcomes, DESPITE the continued presence of racism.
So black immigrants evolve in terms of how they view AAs. But we are NOT the same people. And saying this is NOT a negation of AAs, the way that many AAs think that it is.
And I will not even get into the situation between AAs, and non Hispanic Caribbean blacks (and some Cuban/Brazilian blacks) on the one hand, and your "blacks" from PR and DR and Colombia. NOW THAT is a situation which will never be resolved!
Interested to hear more. This thread has been very informative.
It seems I once had a conversation with some Anthropologist at a conference about using the term "Western Africans" Africans from Africa are a diverse group and Africans brought to the Western Hemisphere are also a diverse group. I was in a city maybe Baltimore? once and I was in a section of town that was very diverse. There were many shops and restaurants owned by black people from many different Western Hemisphere countries.
No black groups seem to like Haitians unfortunately. A girl from Roxbury in Boston and a girl from Queens in NYC both hid from me the fact that they were Haitian. The girl in Boston claimed only her Jamaican and Dominican side. and the girl from queens only told me she was Guyanese. The queens girl i could tell she was Haitian..because she was half Haitian and sadly...a part of me didn't want to say it aloud. The girl from Boston was 1/2 Jamaican 1.4 Dominican and 1/4th Haitian and she didn't tell me for 6 months..I asked why she hadn't told me and she said, have you heard how you talk about Haitians?? How your friends talk about Haitians? ..Ive never felt like such a POS in my life.
I think it comes from the fact that they speak gfrench and creole so its harder for them to integrate into Black american society, that and they seem to be more rooted in an African culture, and are the poorest blacks in the Western World. On top of that theyre a big island and seem to ride the shirt tails of Jamaicans but dont have a a cool, stereotype like Jamaicans do with Reggae/Dancehall/Weed.
My current girlfriend, when we were young, her and her brothers used to call each other "little haitians" as an insult. I remember her dad said "I want yall to cut that out, there's alot of Haitians around and you might get caught up. its not nice"
this is false and over generalizing, since this was present in 80s, and 90s. Haitians today are well integrated in the West Indian Community and most of that hate is pretty much gone against west Indians and AAs. But being that blacks tend to be divisive, and that the haters from those times are still alive today, it wouldn't surprise me if there are still some haters around.
Because of the internet Haitian musicians have now been able to link up with soca and reggae artist to make tunes, and no Haitian I know disclaims their background. I haven't seen or heard of a Haitian claim other background since 2003 (Many claiming Half Dominican, or American or half Jamaican)
just recently reggae artist Kaine and Movado just visited Haiti and performed. Haiti also hosted the 2015 Carifesta which is like a unified carnival.
this is false and over generalizing, since this was present in 80s, and 90s. Haitians today are well integrated in the West Indian Community and most of that hate is pretty much gone against west Indians and AAs. But being that blacks tend to be divisive, and that the haters from those times are still alive today, it wouldn't surprise me if there are still some haters around.
Because of the internet Haitian musicians have now been able to link up with soca and reggae artist to make tunes, and no Haitian I know disclaims their background. I haven't seen or heard of a Haitian claim other background since 2003 (Many claiming Half Dominican, or American or half Jamaican)
just recently reggae artist Kaine and Movado just visited Haiti and performed. Haiti also hosted the 2015 Carifesta which is like a unified carnival.
All i know is in Boston Haitian definitely still carries a stigma (even if it stems from generalizations) despite theem being the largest WI group. Unless ur haitian or follow modern haitian cultute deeply its unlikely for peoplr to know any haitian musicians other than wyclrf jean. I was at a party last week in Hartford and no one was playing any haitian artists, just Trinidadians and Vybz Kartel.
I think a part of the problem is that a lot of people, including some AA, don't understand how diverse the experience has been in the US and that there are aspects that have been retained, if you are privy to them. Music, dance, some aspects of worship, some food, some hairstyles and even some dialects are still present among AA's.
I also find it interesting that AA's from the South would have issues given that it is the part of the US where a person is most likely to see the aspects I mentioned above, whether they are conscious of them or not.
I also find it interesting that "Nigerians" had that view of AA's given that it is most likely where a substantial percentage of AA's descend from. If I'm not mistaken, about a quarter of enslaved Africans that were sent to the US were Igbo and the coast of modern day Nigeria was called the Slave Coast. It may also be the fact that people from various Western African groups were enslaved and brought to the Western Hemisphere, as well as other groups mixed in. Hence, the reaction of those Nigerians.
Any one who has been to Africa (I have) knows that NONE of us descendants of Trans Atlantic slavery are "Africans" in the way that Africans consider what being "African" is. To varying degrees we have African retentions, some more obvious. And I think of Haiti and Bahia in Brazil as examples of this. But we have become thoroughly Westernized. Not superficially as is the case with most non elite Africans.
An African once told me that if I cannot identify with a specific "tribal" group, speak an African language, or use SPECIFIC African forms of dress, then I am not African. Clearly I failed his test of being "African".
1. There are definitely African retentions within AA culture. However these retentions have been highly adapted, and so an African will most likely not see what in it is African, except for the most broad minded or sympathetic among them. They will notice that most of it IS NOT African.
2. Blacks from the South and the Midwest have very specific ideas about what it is to be "Black", and they draw from THEIR notion of what the African American experience will be. For instance I was told by an AA that I sound like a "Geechee", and they were NOT meaning to be flattering, so the fact that Gullah people have "Caribbean" and not AA speech isn't the point. The point is that this person put the Gullahs outside of what they considered to be the mainstream AA culture.
3. The fact that a large % of AAs might have Igbo or other ancestries from southeast Nigeria is irrelevant. Many also have ancestries from the Congo, the Senegambia regions, and from the Liberia/SL area. In addition the vast majority of AAs descend from peoples who arrived when this was still a British colony. Basically we are talking about 250 years of transformation from being the Igbo, Eddo, Ibibio, Ijo, or what ever they were. How many AAs are familiar with the SPECIFIC traditions of each group?
4. The AAs who most easily relate to black immigrants are those who live within the most diverse black communities. In NYC, AAs are the plurality, and are no longer the majority, so CANNOT enforce on a black immigrant what being "black" is. Just like the black immigrant, they will have to accept the various blacks ethnicities for what they are.
In the South and Midwest where communities are less diverse, AAs can and do enforce what it means to be "black", though this doesn't mean that black immigrants accept this behavior.
And in fact when I came to NYC in 1982 AAs weren't that much different from those in less diverse areas. The fact is that the black immigrant population has grown, and it has become more visible and so AAs have had to learn to respect it, and even to develop an interest in aspects of these diverse Afro descendant cultures.
All i know is in Boston Haitian definitely still carries a stigma (even if it stems from generalizations) despite theem being the largest WI group. Unless ur haitian or follow modern haitian cultute deeply its unlikely for peoplr to know any haitian musicians other than wyclrf jean. I was at a party last week in Hartford and no one was playing any haitian artists, just Trinidadians and Vybz Kartel.
I will say that both of you are correct. I know loads of Haitians who are intermarried with people from various parts of the English speaking Caribbean, with marriages to Jamaicans seemingly quite popular. and also to Guyanese. So the stigma that Haitians used to carry today will only apply to the poorest "just off the boat" types.
But I don't hear Haitian music played at West Indian events, even as I hear a little bit of merengue, and even bachata these days. Zouk used to be quite popular years ago, so language isn't the issue.
But then I can also hear some one from the smaller islands saying that all one hears is Trini and Bajan soca and reggae.
Has Atlanta even been mentioned yet? There you have visible communities of West and East Africans, Afro Caribbeans, Canadians, as well as Black Americans from every corner of our nation. I don't think it gets any more diverse than that.
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