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Old 04-09-2015, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,356,272 times
Reputation: 36094

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No. They are all strongly committed to surrendering their small-city status to become big cities. Every single one of them has GROWTH at the center of its development goals, and there is no value they will not trash in order to sell out to Growth. The reason for that, of course, is because all the people who tirelessly place themselves in any position to wield any civic authority are businessmen, whose only goal is to increase their potential customer base and their personal profit therefrom. Cities exist to be more efficiently milked by commerce..

Case in point: A couple of generations ago, people in Kansas City fed up with big city growth, moved out to Blue Springs. When Blue Springs grew to become an ugly city of 30,000, people escaped that by moving further out, to Oak Grove. Sure enough, in an Oak Grove municipal election, every single candidate (all of whom happened to be businessmen) listed Growth as their first campaign priority. Nobody saw the irony in that, and elected a city council consisting entirely of insurance and car and real estate sellers, promising to make the city morph into what people came there to escape.

One of the first "improvements" was to close the old downtown library that children could walk to, and build a new one out on the increasingly busy highway, with no sidewalks.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-09-2015 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,455 posts, read 11,958,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1988 View Post
It's truly nuts to me how you people think that everyone desires to white collar city lifestyle
This isn't a discussion about city living. It's a discussion of big metro areas versus small ones. Most white-collar workers in major metropolitan areas prefer suburban living after all, just like those in smaller metro areas. The question isn't where the residents are, but where the jobs are.

I see nothing shamefull about having a job which doesn't require a college degree. However, the number of plumbers, auto mechanics, bartenders, or nurse's aides will not increase substantially in a metro unless the population increases. The population, in turn, cannot increase unless there are more jobs.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,455 posts, read 11,958,801 times
Reputation: 10566
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
No. They are all strongly committed to surrendering their small-city status to become big cities. Every single one of them has GROWTH at the center of its development goals, and there is no value they will not trash in order to sell out to Growth. The reason for that, of course, is because all the people who tirelessly place themselves in any position to wield any civic authority are businessmen, whose only goal is to increase their potential customer base and their personal profit therefrom..

Case in point: A couple of generations ago, people in Kansas City fed up with big city growth, moved out to Blue Springs. When Blue Springs grew to become an ugly city of 30,000, people escaped that by moving further out, to Oak Grove. Sure enough, in an Oak Grove municipal election, every single candidate (all of whom happened to be businessmen) listed Growth as their first campaign priority. Even though every single voter had moved to their city exactly to escape growth. Nobody saw the irony in that, and elected a city council consisting entirely of insurance and car and real estate sellers, promising to make the city morph into what people came there to escape.
Most voters are anti-growth - that's what the whole NIMBY thing is about.

That said, many politicians end up pro-growth for budgetary reasons. Over time the cost to provide services will rise for a municipality. If the population and development level were stagnant, this would mean that taxes would have to be increased on residents. However, if new development can be attracted, property tax revenue can increase without raising the mil rate. This is especially attractive if commercial property owners can be wooed, as businesses do not use the most expensive municipal services, such as education.

If we had a different form of funding for what we consider municipal services - if they were handled through state funding, for example - than there wouldn't be any economic incentive for municipalities in a metro to compete with others for growth. There might still be private incentives for property owners to develop their land more intensely, of course, but that's another question entirely.
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Old 04-09-2015, 11:50 AM
 
21,220 posts, read 30,443,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
But as other posters said, many blue collar jobs are being phased-out, automated, or shipped overseas. Unfortunately, the "white collar lifestyle" may be the only kind of lifestyle available to a large proportion of Americans.
That's a bit dramatic as blue collar jobs have transformed from what we have known traditionally, and the demand is as high as ever if one knows where to look and what to look for.

Where the jobs are: The new blue collar
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Old 04-09-2015, 11:58 AM
 
130 posts, read 126,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
But as other posters said, many blue collar jobs are being phased-out, automated, or shipped overseas. Unfortunately, the "white collar lifestyle" may be the only kind of lifestyle available to a large proportion of Americans.
So people don't own small businesses? Work as electricians, plumbers, and so forth? Most people do not go to college. People may not be working in the steel mills or for Mr. Ford these days, but not everyone will or wants to put on a tie and fight through traffic to work in a building. Big cities are not everyone's desire.


Blue collar jobs are changing yeah, it's less factory and more call center but it still exists. I would hate to live in a white collar world..I don't enjoy being around degree educated urbane people. Some people just want normal, lower middle class lives and unfortunately Brooklyn, and Chicago can't offer that anymore unless you're an immigrant willing to live 15 to a home. That's why small cities still exist because some people are averse to big cities and all the crowding and debauchery that comes with them.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:18 PM
 
2,601 posts, read 4,078,637 times
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List of Metropolitan Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The facts speak for themselves. With a few exceptions, cities that size are increasing, not decreasing in population.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:25 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere
9,114 posts, read 4,155,253 times
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As somebody who currently lives in a small city and has no familial ties here, I really want to move elsewhere but a lot of people I know do not. They have deep roots here with their family and friends they've had for life and to them, moving to the big, bustling city isn't worth losing those personal connections. Those who grow up in OKC and desire a white collar urban lifestyle usually move to Dallas, Austin, or Kansas City if not farther, but plenty have no interest in that and they are happy here.

One thing I have discovered is that small cities and large cities have very distinct personalities. If you desire one environment its not easy to be happy in the other.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:37 PM
 
3,970 posts, read 3,505,039 times
Reputation: 6397
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618 View Post
As somebody who currently lives in a small city and has no familial ties here, I really want to move elsewhere but a lot of people I know do not. They have deep roots here with their family and friends they've had for life and to them, moving to the big, bustling city isn't worth losing those personal connections. Those who grow up in OKC and desire a white collar urban lifestyle usually move to Dallas, Austin, or Kansas City if not farther, but plenty have no interest in that and they are happy here.

One thing I have discovered is that small cities and large cities have very distinct personalities. If you desire one environment its not easy to be happy in the other.
I think your definition of small city, and what the OP was refering to are different. Oklahoma City is not at all in threat of decline at the moment, it's one of the faster growing places in the country.

OP defined small city as having a metro around 600k or smaller, which is the city pop for OKC alone.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:50 PM
 
130 posts, read 126,661 times
Reputation: 206
I lived in San Angelo Texas. There are people there who would rather work at McDonalds than leave to find work. People have hometown loyalty, not everyone wants to be a tumbleweed moving to the NYC, Chicago, London chasing opportunity. For some it's worth it to stay in the hometown they know with the people and places they care about.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,455 posts, read 11,958,801 times
Reputation: 10566
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1988 View Post
So people don't own small businesses? Work as electricians, plumbers, and so forth? Most people do not go to college. People may not be working in the steel mills or for Mr. Ford these days, but not everyone will or wants to put on a tie and fight through traffic to work in a building. Big cities are not everyone's desire.


Blue collar jobs are changing yeah, it's less factory and more call center but it still exists. I would hate to live in a white collar world..I don't enjoy being around degree educated urbane people. Some people just want normal, lower middle class lives and unfortunately Brooklyn, and Chicago can't offer that anymore unless you're an immigrant willing to live 15 to a home. That's why small cities still exist because some people are averse to big cities and all the crowding and debauchery that comes with them.
Again, there's a difference between living in a major metropolitan area, and living in an urban environment. Houston is a huge MSA, but everyone but a minuscule fraction lives in a suburban environment.

And as I said upthread, blue collar jobs are just fine. But if you're an electrician, say, your access to work will be based upon the population of an area, along with the growth in construction. If 10,000 electricians moved to your city, it wouldn't stimulate growth, it would just result in a lot of unemployed people (and downward pressure on wages). You need some other industries - ones which export goods and services - to provide the net job growth for a metropolitan area that the secondary industries benefit from.
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