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Old 05-19-2015, 02:17 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,018,519 times
Reputation: 4857

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Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
This is exhausting. Ohio is Midwestern. Northern Virginia, Maryland and Delaware are the Mid Atlantic, or lower Northeast, along with Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Downstate New York. End of discussion.
All of Virgina in unquestionably Southern, the relatively recent mass migration of Northerners notwithstanding. The same principle applies to Maryland and Delaware. These are traditionally Southern states and ought to be regarded as such. With migration and demographic trends as they are, much of the rest of the South likewise stands to lose its Southern identity as well. Unfortunately, at some future time, the South may no longer exist. But since this area is rightfully Southern, the land itself should not cease to be regarded as such. Nor should Southerners relinquish their claim to all of their land.

 
Old 05-19-2015, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,226,170 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Love it. You use the Census when convenient, and ditch it when it doesn't fit your argument.
The Census isn't what I'm using unlike some people. You already lost this round once I'm more than happy to admonish a second beating.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,226,170 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Love it. You use the Census when convenient, and ditch it when it doesn't fit your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
All of Virgina in unquestionably Southern, the relatively recent mass migration of Northerners notwithstanding. The same principle applies to Maryland and Delaware. These are traditionally Southern states and ought to be regarded as such. With migration and demographic trends as they are, much of the rest of the South likewise stands to lose its Southern identity as well. Unfortunately, at some future time, the South may no longer exist. But since this area is rightfully Southern, the land itself should not cease to be regarded as such. Nor should Southerners relinquish their claim to all of their land.
Nope. Northern Virginia isn't southern culturally, in terms of dialect, politics, etc. the same applies to all of Maryland outside of Southern Maryland and the vast majority of Delaware. Simply stating these places are unquestionably Southern is ignoring the truth. Sorry.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 02:34 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,018,519 times
Reputation: 4857
Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
Nope. Northern Virginia isn't southern culturally, in terms of dialect, politics, etc. the same applies to all of Maryland outside of Southern Maryland and the vast majority of Delaware. Simply stating these places are unquestionably Southern is ignoring the truth. Sorry.
I'm well aware of the fact that these states have lost much of what made them Southern. That's happening all over the South. The 'South' is clearly growing smaller. That's why I lamented that one day, the 'South' as we think of it may no longer exist. However, as long as Southerners exist, the heritage and identity of the South live on.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,226,170 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
I'm well aware of the fact that these states have lost much of what made them Southern. That's happening all over the South. The 'South' is clearly growing smaller. That's why I lamented that one day, the 'South' as we think of it may no longer exist. However, as long as Southerners exist, the heritage and identity of the South live on.
Not all over the South that is an illusion. These places are definitively not Southern anymore. Outside of Florida, the rest of the South remains distinctly Southern.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
I'm well aware of the fact that these states have lost much of what made them Southern. That's happening all over the South. The 'South' is clearly growing smaller. That's why I lamented that one day, the 'South' as we think of it may no longer exist. However, as long as Southerners exist, the heritage and identity of the South live on.
That's what Ta-Nehisi Coates says.

Quote:
As tends to happen, the implicit claim that the Eastern Shore of Maryland--in the 20s and 30s-- qualifies as the "South" raised some eyebrows in comments. Having traveled the South quite a bit, I can sort of see the point. But not really. It's always felt much more like Virginia to me than, say, Upstate New York or rural Massachusetts. Of course there are those who don't believe Virginia is the South either. Which is sort of the point.

Over the past decade I've heard people from South Carolina insist that Louisiana isn't the South, and people from Louisiana isn't that Virginia isn't the South, and people from Virginia insist Kentucky isn't the South, and people from Kentucky insist that Texas isn't the South, and so on...

As best I can tell, the indisputable South consists of four states--South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. It even seems that Georgia is getting sketchy--Atlanta has always skewed things.
The Indisputable South - The Atlantic
 
Old 05-19-2015, 04:23 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,843,107 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
The Census isn't what I'm using unlike some people. You already lost this round once I'm more than happy to admonish a second beating.
What beating? Talking to you is like playing chess with a pigeon. You make no actual strategic moves, you just knock the pieces down, crap on the board, and strut around like you won. As I said earlier: Oh, hai Ball freak.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 04:34 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,843,107 times
Reputation: 2585
I do love how U146 has no consistency in criteria for judging state identity. First, linguistics, politics, culture don't matter. But when it comes the rest of the Northeast, now it matters. If you're going to use these to argue that DMV and MD are Northeastern, then Ohio undoubtedly is more Northeastern because it has more Northern characteristics, no Southern ones whatsoever, it has true dark blue politics, more White ethnics, and is just as snowy as PA and Upstate NY.

If being slightly Northern in one area makes the DC-Baltimore metros Northeastern, then Ohio is definitely Northeastern because unlike these metros, Ohio was never part of the South nor has it ever had Southern dialects spoken in ANY region of it. Ohio is more NE than that area because NO part of Ohio is Southern unlike MD and Virginia that DO have Southern aspects to them. How can partially Southern states be more Northeastern than a fully Northern state? Ohio was never in the South in any way. By this logic, it already knocks MD and NOVA out of the Northeast by default. Couple this with heavy Italian, Polish, Irish, and Jewish populations and Northern Cities Vowel Shift (which is present in the Northeast and nowhere in MD or NOVA) and the nail in the coffin is hammered in to the logic that these pseudo-Northeast states can beat out Ohio as a contender. But no, these places are definitely NOT Southern in any way. Which is why Baltimoreans eat fried chicken and pit beef, which is why Eastern Shore people maintain their Southern identity. Which is why Tidewater is spoken in MD, which is why Baltimore's version of Reading Terminal market serves up raccoon meat and why the Arnold Palmer there is made with sweet tea. Which is why even in Cincy there is no strong Southern identity unlike the Eastern Shore. But sure, let's ignore this.

Ohio is more Northeastern than Maryland, Delaware, or Virginia will ever be. And U146 knows this so his best argument is "no it's not". Bravo. Not that it matters. This troll will get banned and then months later come back and become a broken record again.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 04:49 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,018,519 times
Reputation: 4857
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's what Ta-Nehisi Coates says.
Who? Never heard of this person. Sure doesn't sound like a Southerner. Her (his?) opinions are completely irrelevant to me. I base the North-South distinction on history and the obsevation of the fundamental North-South differences. There are many people in SC, MS, AL and GA who are not Southerners by any stretch, while there are many Southerners (whose roots in the South are firmly established) in states you seem to regard as non-Southern, such as Virginia and Maryland.
 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:19 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,870,632 times
Reputation: 4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
NY is on the Great Lakes. NY has sports rivalries. NY has the manufacturing (rust belt) and agricultural (23% of land area) economies.

But this all points to (western) NY having affinities to the Midwest more than Ohio having affinities to the Northeast.
Agreed. I was thinking of writing about Erie, PA, and Buffalo as part of my comment but thought it was extraneous and self-evident. Both cities would well fit in northeast Ohio, although duckpin is bigger in Erie relative to its population than it is in Cleveland. :-)

Presque Isle is such a great place and makes Erie much more lake-conscious than Cleveland IMO.

Both Buffalo and Cleveland owe their prominence to their status as canal terminals/Lake Erie ports.

Erie and southern Buffalo get much more lake effect snow than Cleveland proper as westerly winds can sweep across much more of the length of Lake Erie in both of those cities.

Pittsburgh is a very different place than Cleveland and even different than Cincinnati, although both are river cities. Pittsburgh has much more of an Appalachian feel to me than does Cincinnati or Cleveland.

Last edited by WRnative; 05-19-2015 at 08:27 PM..
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