U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:48 PM
 
2,199 posts, read 2,325,412 times
Reputation: 1945

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Who? Never heard of this person. Sure doesn't sound like a Southerner.
He's from Maryland...

Quote:
All of Virgina in unquestionably Southern, the relatively recent mass migration of Northerners notwithstanding. The same principle applies to Maryland and Delaware. These are traditionally Southern states and ought to be regarded as such.

 
Old 05-19-2015, 08:49 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,892,133 times
Reputation: 4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Ah, but does it point to Upstate NY having Midwestern traits or GREAT LAKES traits? The Great Lakes are culturally unique even in the Midwest. Linguistics, demographics, and climate are all consistent across the Great Lakes and they vary from the rest of the Midwest. Nobody in the Midwest outside of the Great Lakes save for St. Louis speaks with a Northern Cities Vowel Shift (which by the way can be found as far East as Western Massachusetts).

The Great Lakes have large proportions of Italians/Polish/Irish/Jews that the rest of the Midwest doesn't have. Once you leave the Great Lakes, most Midwestern cities and states are primarily German with much less ethnic variance in Whites (or anyone for that matter). Climate-wise, the Great Lakes area is a humid continental climate varying between warm and cool summers, and heavily snowy winters. The rest of the Midwest while experiencing snow does not experience the heavy Lake Effect snowfall that the Great Lakes do. The Eastern European culture is weak in the Midwest but strong in the Great Lakes.

Summers in the Great Lakes are more pleasant than in the inland areas of the Central Plains states. Also, Great Lakes states have lower tornadic activity than the Great Plains. This is true whether you're in Pennsylvania, New York, or OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, or MN. The Southern portion of the Midwest states transitions to the humid subtropical climate. Nowhere in the Great Lakes is there a humid subtropical climate by any stretch of the imagination. The majority of the Midwest (by area) speaks in Midland dialects that are also found in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Maryland. The Great Lakes area speak in strictly Northern dialects found in New York, a tiny Northeast tip of Pennsylvania around Scranton, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Western Massachusetts (the Northern Cities Vowel Shift extends that far East). The only Great Plains State with a hint of that dialect is South Dakota, but only the Eastern portion. Elsewhere it's found mostly in the Great Lakes and in what is called the "St. Louis corridor" that follows the Illinois river downstream along I-55 from Chicago to St. Louis.

The Great Lakes are a unique region in the US, where the culture, language, and climate cross Census regions. They have more in common with each other than they do with the rest of the "Midwest".
I don't think the Great Lakes region is culturally unique in the Midwest. E.g., the entire region historically has had a much greater emphasis on culture, museums, education, etc., than some other regions. Lower population densities and easy proximity to rural areas definitely affect philosophies of life compared with the Northeast. E.g., Columbus, Indiana, has been called the "Athens of the Prairie."

Even in Northeast Ohio, I've spoken with teachers who related the amazement of their children who visited a nearby old growth forest for the first time in their lives. Then I thought about the millions of children in the great cities of the northeast who never are afforded that opportunity. There are three National Natural Landmarks within 30 miles of Cleveland proper, and several more within two hours.

Very few places in the country have devoted the resources to Metro (county) parks that characterize Ohio. I know Clevelanders who are shocked by the paucity of natural areas when they move to many other urban areas in the U.S.

Your points about linguistics are accurate, although many persons in the Great Lakes region don't have the vowel shift that is rapidly evolving there.

Hate to tell you this, but the German Americans have largely been assimilated. The German culture is on its very last legs even in places such as German Village in Columbus. The 3Cs all now have Munich-based Hofbrau Haus branches, but there is better Wienerschnitzel and craft beer elsewhere in Cleveland, but most likely at Hungarian or Croatian restaurants.

Lake effect snow is very localized in the Midwest, directly proportional to areas that are downwind of the longest swaths of lake surface and especially downwind areas at higher altitudes. Large swaths of the Great Lakes relatively don't get much of it, such as Cleveland and west to Toledo in Ohio along the shore of Lake Erie.
 
Old 05-20-2015, 04:28 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,365 posts, read 7,041,802 times
Reputation: 4865
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
He's from Maryland...
That doesn't make him a Southerner. There are Southerners in Maryland, but not all Maryland residents are Southerners by any stretch. When I speak of Southerners, I am referring to a specific people whose heritage and culture characterize the Southland. Not all people from the region are part of this. That's why I said, unfortunately, the South is declining and shrinking. That's also the position of those who now assign Southern areas a less than Southern designation. That would make no sense if the South were a mere geographical term, but in the context of this discussion, it most certainly is not.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,230,944 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I do love how U146 has no consistency in criteria for judging state identity. First, linguistics, politics, culture don't matter. But when it comes the rest of the Northeast, now it matters. If you're going to use these to argue that DMV and MD are Northeastern, then Ohio undoubtedly is more Northeastern because it has more Northern characteristics, no Southern ones whatsoever, it has true dark blue politics, more White ethnics, and is just as snowy as PA and Upstate NY.

If being slightly Northern in one area makes the DC-Baltimore metros Northeastern, then Ohio is definitely Northeastern because unlike these metros, Ohio was never part of the South nor has it ever had Southern dialects spoken in ANY region of it. Ohio is more NE than that area because NO part of Ohio is Southern unlike MD and Virginia that DO have Southern aspects to them. How can partially Southern states be more Northeastern than a fully Northern state? Ohio was never in the South in any way. By this logic, it already knocks MD and NOVA out of the Northeast by default. Couple this with heavy Italian, Polish, Irish, and Jewish populations and Northern Cities Vowel Shift (which is present in the Northeast and nowhere in MD or NOVA) and the nail in the coffin is hammered in to the logic that these pseudo-Northeast states can beat out Ohio as a contender. But no, these places are definitely NOT Southern in any way. Which is why Baltimoreans eat fried chicken and pit beef, which is why Eastern Shore people maintain their Southern identity. Which is why Tidewater is spoken in MD, which is why Baltimore's version of Reading Terminal market serves up raccoon meat and why the Arnold Palmer there is made with sweet tea. Which is why even in Cincy there is no strong Southern identity unlike the Eastern Shore. But sure, let's ignore this.

Ohio is more Northeastern than Maryland, Delaware, or Virginia will ever be. And U146 knows this so his best argument is "no it's not". Bravo. Not that it matters. This troll will get banned and then months later come back and become a broken record again.
Ohio is Midwestern, not Northeastern whatsoever. Maryland and Delaware are culturally, politically, and linguistically similar to Southern Pennsylvania and Southern New Jersey, which you conveniently choose to leave out of the Northeast. Me a troll? You're a broken record. And sweet tea has been out of the South for awhile. You constantly try to stir the pot around here.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 09:30 PM
 
Location: The City of Brotherly Love
1,047 posts, read 730,658 times
Reputation: 2577
I highly disagree with the topic of the thread. As someone who lives in the Philadelphia area, I don't consider any place west of Harrisburg as a part of the Northeast. To me, socially, the Northeastern US stretches from the US-Canadian border in Maine, all the way down to northern Virginia.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 10:12 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,857,540 times
Reputation: 2585
What makes PA Northeastern that Ohio doesn't have? Same thing with MD and VA.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Morgantown, WV
469 posts, read 418,847 times
Reputation: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
What makes PA Northeastern that Ohio doesn't have? Same thing with MD and VA.
The common consensus is that Ohio isn't a "Northeastern" state man. It's just not. It's Midwestern. Some parts may have "Northeastern" traits, but overall it's Midwestern.

Virginia certainly isn't. Maryland pretty much isn't either. It's a sort of Mid Atlantic I guess.

Pennsylvania is a big state. The culture changes a lot from the far east coast to the western Appalachians from what I can tell. The latter, for a Southerner(from north Georgia) that visited, feels pretty much like anywhere in western NC, VA, east TN, or WV. Almost like home despite being above the Mason-Dixon.

Last edited by wvtraveler; 05-31-2015 at 01:07 AM..
 
Old 05-31-2015, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
6,514 posts, read 9,075,418 times
Reputation: 5010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvtraveler View Post
The common consensus is that Ohio isn't a "Northeastern" state man. It's just not. It's Midwestern. Some parts may have "Northeastern" traits, but overall it's Midwestern.

Virginia certainly isn't. Maryland pretty much isn't either. It's a sort of Mid Atlantic I guess.

Pennsylvania is a big state. The culture changes a lot from the far east coast to the western Appalachians from what I can tell. The latter, for a Southerner(from north Georgia) that visited, feels pretty much like anywhere in western NC, VA, east TN, or WV. Almost like home despite being above the Mason-Dixon.
This is true. I met some people from rural western Pennsylvania that could have passed for being from the south. It's VERY different from the urban eastern Pennsylvania.
 
Old 05-31-2015, 08:29 AM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,857,540 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
Ohio is Midwestern, not Northeastern whatsoever. Maryland and Delaware are culturally, politically, and linguistically similar to Southern Pennsylvania and Southern New Jersey, which you conveniently choose to leave out of the Northeast. Me a troll? You're a broken record. And sweet tea has been out of the South for awhile. You constantly try to stir the pot around here.
Really? That's interesting because linguistically, Ohio sits in the Midland region pretty well just like most of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. But, unlike Maryland and Delaware, Ohio doesn't sit in the Southern accent territory while they do. Why should a state with Southern dialects spoken within any region of its borders be considered "North" anything? Ohio also has Northern Cities Vowels in its Northern regions just like far Northeast Pennsylvania and most of Upstate New York. Politically, Ohio is a swing state. But like PA and MD, its rural areas are red. Cleveland bleeds blue just like Pittsburgh, Philly, Baltimore, and DC. Also, culturally, Ohio is as Northeast as New York with its heavy Italian, Jewish, Polish, and Irish populations that poor DMV can't compete with. Even the Baltimore metro can't put up those numbers that Cleveland is way ahead of. Forget about DC producing that many white ethnics. So, what's your leg to stand on?
 
Old 05-31-2015, 09:04 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,365 posts, read 7,041,802 times
Reputation: 4865
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Really? That's interesting because linguistically, Ohio sits in the Midland region pretty well just like most of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. But, unlike Maryland and Delaware, Ohio doesn't sit in the Southern accent territory while they do. Why should a state with Southern dialects spoken within any region of its borders be considered "North" anything? Ohio also has Northern Cities Vowels in its Northern regions just like far Northeast Pennsylvania and most of Upstate New York. Politically, Ohio is a swing state. But like PA and MD, its rural areas are red. Cleveland bleeds blue just like Pittsburgh, Philly, Baltimore, and DC. Also, culturally, Ohio is as Northeast as New York with its heavy Italian, Jewish, Polish, and Irish populations that poor DMV can't compete with. Even the Baltimore metro can't put up those numbers that Cleveland is way ahead of. Forget about DC producing that many white ethnics. So, what's your leg to stand on?
All of the North has a kind of pan-European blend as far as the white population is concerned, with some groups being more numerous in certain areas, whereas the South is more heavily Anglo-Saxon. Chicago, for example, also has Poles, Italians, etc. All counties in Ohio had German as their largest ancestry (and a few "American" (mostly British Isles ancestry) and one African American), though, on the 2000 Census, unlike the Northeast, but more like the Midwest.

Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top