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Old 05-23-2015, 09:48 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,401,064 times
Reputation: 8929

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Again, those percentages don't necessarily reflect the true opinions people have about A/C, and whether or not they deem it necessary.
It clearly shows a demand and want for AC. If people didn't want it then they wouldn't get it or use it.
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Yeah, they can adjust to it; doesn't mean that they still won't find it too chilly.
Doesn't mean they will either
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And many more homes still stay the way they are, without any alterations. There are plenty of people who like the feel of heat and humidity, contrary to popular belief.
Far more older homes designed for the climate in the South have some form of AC than don't.
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Don't kid yourself; steps have to be taken to prepare for ANY climate.
Sure just with climates like the South you have to take more steps.
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Same goes for California, the US as a whole, and for many locations in the world.
Some places are more prone to severe weather than others, the South obviously has more severe weather than a place like CA.
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False, with walkable design vs sprawl, there is less concrete being used, with less area covered by concrete as well. Thus, any UHI influence would be more localized. But if you then do acts like planting trees, gardens, etc on top of skyscrapers, or planting grass on the streets, then UHI can easily be mitigated:
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The area covered by structures and concrete is more intense though. Dense cities like NYC are much warmer than the surrounding suburbs.
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True, but to be fair, many cities in the South are already aware of the hurricane/windstorm threat, and thus have building codes that ensure that structures are strong enough to withstand hurricanes. Furthermore, people are already more familiar with the processes necessary to avoid hurricane damage. In contrast, people are less aware of just how powerful those Pacific low-pressure storms can be, and can be caught off-guard when they strike, resulting in lots of destruction.
Yet the "destruction" still pales in comparison to what the South has seen.
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You are going to need more than just windows to circulate air around the ENTIRE house.
Oh yeah and some fans too.
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And considering that there are people used to living without A/C in the tropics, where heat and humidity is year round, its also a safe bet that they would be doing so easily in the South, as the time of heat and humidity is less.
Yeah used to it b/c they have no other choice, given the choice it's pretty obvious to everyone except you what they would choose.

 
Old 05-24-2015, 12:49 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,197,388 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
It clearly shows a demand and want for AC. If people didn't want it then they wouldn't get it or use it.
Or it shows the passivity towards home building, in that developers don't like to take the time to design a house appropriately to deal with the climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Doesn't mean they will either
Considering that people in the tropics wear jackets at 60F weather, I'd say they will definitely find the weather in coastal California quite chilly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Far more older homes designed for the climate in the South have some form of AC than don't.
A sign of the growing behaviors towards cheapness on the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Sure just with climates like the South you have to take more steps.
Not more steps, just different steps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Some places are more prone to severe weather than others, the South obviously has more severe weather than a place like CA.
I'd say the weather in CA is quite severe in its own way, with its tendency towards dryness, which leads to epic, civilization-ending droughts, and massive wildfires that the South is largely spared from.

Like I said, regular thunderstorms may be dramatic, but they are not severe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
The area covered by structures and concrete is more intense though. Dense cities like NYC are much warmer than the surrounding suburbs.
But with sprawl, the built area is more extensive, due to all the splaying concrete, freeways, etc. Thus, the UHI encompasses a larger area than if the city were more concentrated densely. Thus, with such far reaching effects, its possible for even Galveston to be affected by Houston area UHI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Yet the "destruction" still pales in comparison to what the South has seen.
Then again, the South does not have civilization-ending droughts, and massive wildfires like the West does. Also, for a lot of history, the South was more populated than the West, and larger areas of the South were, and are still populated, compared to the West (the West has large areas of rural land, with cities concentrated to clusters. See this image here: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...x769_popup.jpg). Thus, there was more to destroy compared to the West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Oh yeah and some fans too.
Keep it up. More than that is needed for any region you chose to live in without A/C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Yeah used to it b/c they have no other choice, given the choice it's pretty obvious to everyone except you what they would choose.
Stop falling for confounding variables. The fact that many homes have A/C can show sheer cheapness on part of the developers, who do not want to foot the extra bill to properly design a home to be comfortable without A/C. I'm sure that if people found out that there were ways to cool the home without wasting the energy bill, then they would do it. Most people don't like being Energy Hogs.
 
Old 05-24-2015, 12:53 PM
 
9,701 posts, read 7,244,373 times
Reputation: 9846
None, unless you live within 5 miles of the coast in CA.

Even in San Diego, with its moderate temps, if you're more than 5 miles from the beach you absolutely need AC and Heat. Even if you're right on the beach, Heat would be pretty important in the winter, but you could probably go without AC.
 
Old 05-24-2015, 01:58 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,401,064 times
Reputation: 8929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Or it shows the passivity towards home building, in that developers don't like to take the time to design a house appropriately to deal with the climate.
And homes with those design features many times still have AC, especially in the US. People like AC and people admit to liking AC.
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Considering that people in the tropics wear jackets at 60F weather, I'd say they will definitely find the weather in coastal California quite chilly.
We keep going in a circle here. I've already admitted some would find it chilly at first and still some might always find it chilly. Is it that hard for you to admit that many people from tropical climates can adjust to a climate like CA and not find it too cool?
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A sign of the growing behaviors towards cheapness on the US.
Sure somewhat it is but also shows a clear preference for AC too.
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Not more steps, just different steps.
No more steps, you clearly haven't spent much time in homes in coastal CA.
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I'd say the weather in CA is quite severe in its own way, with its tendency towards dryness, which leads to epic, civilization-ending droughts, and massive wildfires that the South is largely spared from.

Like I said, regular thunderstorms may be dramatic, but they are not severe.
Then why do they get so many "severe" thunderstorm warnings? The south has some of the highest property damage and deaths related to weather,higher than places out west.
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But with sprawl, the built area is more extensive, due to all the splaying concrete, freeways, etc. Thus, the UHI encompasses a larger area than if the city were more concentrated densely. Thus, with such far reaching effects, its possible for even Galveston to be affected by Houston area UHI.
Ok but the actual city itself, where people live, will still be hot.

ALso what's kind of contradictory is you advocate for dense, urban walkable design to less the area the UHI effects but keep talking about people living in houses to keep cool. If you want a smaller urban footprint single family homes isn't going to accomplish that. Taller, dense apartment buildings will.
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Then again, the South does not have civilization-ending droughts, and massive wildfires like the West does. Also, for a lot of history, the South was more populated than the West, and larger areas of the South were, and are still populated, compared to the West (the West has large areas of rural land, with cities concentrated to clusters. See this image here: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...x769_popup.jpg). Thus, there was more to destroy compared to the West.
The west not being as populated has to do with European settlement patterns in North America, not really climate.
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Keep it up. More than that is needed for any region you chose to live in without A/C.
Not in CA. In my 9 years of living in San Diego all of the homes I lived in just had ceiling fans, including my 3rd floor apartment. No AC, no big shade trees, no whole house fans, no tall ceilings, no attics, etc..

Quote:
Stop falling for confounding variables. The fact that many homes have A/C can show sheer cheapness on part of the developers, who do not want to foot the extra bill to properly design a home to be comfortable without A/C. I'm sure that if people found out that there were ways to cool the home without wasting the energy bill, then they would do it. Most people don't like being Energy Hogs.
Stop pretending that there isn't a large, widespread desire for AC as people find it an ameniity that is very hard to live without, especially in the South. While I do agree it's unfortunate that the US is such an energy hog but it is what it is. You seem to be the only that has trouble accepting or seeing the reality of the situation.
 
Old 05-24-2015, 09:27 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,197,388 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
And homes with those design features many times still have AC, especially in the US. People like AC and people admit to liking AC.
Well, again, its cheaper to just plop A/C than it is to maintain/build the design needed to keep the house comfortable without A/C. Also, given the eurocentric nature of the US, the country is full of people who aren't naturally adapted to hot, humid climates. Fill the US with Africans, and Asians, and you won't hear near as much complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
We keep going in a circle here. I've already admitted some would find it chilly at first and still some might always find it chilly. Is it that hard for you to admit that many people from tropical climates can adjust to a climate like CA and not find it too cool?
They can adjust, but it still will be a cool temperature for them. One can adjust to 32F weather; doesn't mean that 32F still isn't freezing.

So they can adjust to coastal California weather, yes. However, adjusting to the climate of the South would be easier for them; they won't have to make too many changes to their lifestyle as they would had they gone to coastal California. Such ease of adjustment can definitely make the South a more attractive climate for those people than coastal California.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Sure somewhat it is but also shows a clear preference for AC too.
I will agree, but only to the sense that developers prefer A/C because it is cheaper to install a unit than it is to properly design a house with the climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
No more steps, you clearly haven't spent much time in homes in coastal CA.
Depends on the level of comfort you want to achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Then why do they get so many "severe" thunderstorm warnings? The south has some of the highest property damage and deaths related to weather,higher than places out west.
Again, the South just happens to contain the particular area (mid-South around Tennessee, north Mississippi, north Alabama, etc) that is quite prone to these severe thunderstorms and tornadic activity. Also, the region is quite large in area, and, in combination, has a larger area with population coverage than the West, which is largely rural except in urban clusters. Look at how many counties that South has compared to the West, for instance. Thus, there is more property out to damage in the South than in the West (which also has its share of property damage from weather events, be it super droughts, dust-storms, massive wild-fires, mud-slides induced by rains, and flash-floods).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Ok but the actual city itself, where people live, will still be hot.

ALso what's kind of contradictory is you advocate for dense, urban walkable design to less the area the UHI effects but keep talking about people living in houses to keep cool. If you want a smaller urban footprint single family homes isn't going to accomplish that. Taller, dense apartment buildings will.
Who said I was limiting discussion to just SFHs? As long as ANY structure is designed with the climate in mind, it can be kept comfortable without A/C. Combine such smart design with eco-designs, such as planting grass on streets, or gardening on building tops, and UHI can successfully be mitigated. Such examples are already being implemented in many European cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Not in CA. In my 9 years of living in San Diego all of the homes I lived in just had ceiling fans, including my 3rd floor apartment. No AC, no big shade trees, no whole house fans, no tall ceilings, no attics, etc..
And you felt comfortable? And I mean very comfortable, as if you were in paradise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Stop pretending that there isn't a large, widespread desire for AC as people find it an ameniity that is very hard to live without, especially in the South. While I do agree it's unfortunate that the US is such an energy hog but it is what it is. You seem to be the only that has trouble accepting or seeing the reality of the situation.
And once those people are reintroduced to the natural techniques of keeping a home cool without A/C, then they would take up such techniques, glad to feel comfortable at the home without having to foot a huge energy bill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
None, unless you live within 5 miles of the coast in CA.

Even in San Diego, with its moderate temps, if you're more than 5 miles from the beach you absolutely need AC and Heat. Even if you're right on the beach, Heat would be pretty important in the winter, but you could probably go without AC.
Nope, far more than that in this country. Living without A/C and Heat can be done in Hawaii, the coastal South, and the warm desert valleys of the Southwest.
 
Old 05-24-2015, 09:57 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,401,064 times
Reputation: 8929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Well, again, its cheaper to just plop A/C than it is to maintain/build the design needed to keep the house comfortable without A/C. Also, given the eurocentric nature of the US, the country is full of people who aren't naturally adapted to hot, humid climates. Fill the US with Africans, and Asians, and you won't hear near as much complaining.
If an older home was already designed with the climate in mind no it's not cheaper to put in AC than it is to leave it the way it was designed.
Quote:
They can adjust, but it still will be a cool temperature for them. One can adjust to 32F weather; doesn't mean that 32F still isn't freezing.

So they can adjust to coastal California weather, yes. However, adjusting to the climate of the South would be easier for them; they won't have to make too many changes to their lifestyle as they would had they gone to coastal California. Such ease of adjustment can definitely make the South a more attractive climate for those people than coastal California.
Or they might end up finding it more ideal given how much more comfortable the temperature range is in CA to the human body in general. Some though I'm sure might prefer the familiarity if their home climate.
Quote:
I will agree, but only to the sense that developers prefer A/C because it is cheaper to install a unit than it is to properly design a house with the climate.
They also want to be able to actually sell the homes, no matter how well the home is designed good luck trying to sell a home in the South without AC.
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Depends on the level of comfort you want to achieve.
Sure but it's clear your level of comfort is different than most people's.
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Again, the South just happens to contain the particular area (mid-South around Tennessee, north Mississippi, north Alabama, etc) that is quite prone to these severe thunderstorms and tornadic activity. Also, the region is quite large in area, and, in combination, has a larger area with population coverage than the West, which is largely rural except in urban clusters. Look at how many counties that South has compared to the West, for instance. Thus, there is more property out to damage in the South than in the West (which also has its share of property damage from weather events, be it super droughts, dust-storms, massive wild-fires, mud-slides induced by rains, and flash-floods).
What kind of property damage do droughts cause? dead grass lawns? lol

Simple fact that it's a more severe climate with more weather related deaths than the Western US.
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Who said I was limiting discussion to just SFHs? As long as ANY structure is designed with the climate in mind, it can be kept comfortable without A/C. Combine such smart design with eco-designs, such as planting grass on streets, or gardening on building tops, and UHI can successfully be mitigated. Such examples are already being implemented in many European cities.
That would be great but you're not going to mitigate it to the point it's cooler and less humid than the region naturally is without any development, which many people would still find naturally too warm and humid.
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And you felt comfortable? And I mean very comfortable, as if you were in paradise?
Yeah except for maybe 5-10 days a year during a heatwave. There's a reason all the poorly built and designed homes in coastal CA still don't have AC, they don't really need it.
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And once those people are reintroduced to the natural techniques of keeping a home cool without A/C, then they would take up such techniques, glad to feel comfortable at the home without having to foot a huge energy bill.
I would hope so and that would be great. I still think AC would be needed but not used as much, which I agree is a good thing.
 
Old 05-25-2015, 07:04 AM
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11,386 posts, read 10,510,871 times
Reputation: 6606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Nope, far more than that in this country. Living without A/C and Heat can be done in Hawaii, the coastal South, and the warm desert valleys of the Southwest.
I'll believe that when people are actually doing it.
 
Old 05-25-2015, 07:35 AM
 
2,639 posts, read 5,215,614 times
Reputation: 2352
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX City visiting View Post
Vast majority of America has very warm to hot summers that requires A/C and most of the country has enough chilly winter weather that requires heating. However, there are few cities where neither A/C nor heating is required vast majority of the time. Which city do you think offers the best of that?

San Diego, Los Angeles coastal areas comes to mind, and maybe San Francisco as well.
Wow. You just said San Diego as a city that doesn't need A/C? Really?

This is the problem with such questions. "Comfort" is a subjective word that changes by the individual.

I live in the Pacific Northwest. It's average of 60 degrees up here. Furnaces are common, A/C is not. Why? It only stays hot maybe 4 months out of the year. But the problem is that what is "hot" to me is "perfect" to someone else.

I feel that 60-70 degrees on the spot is the perfect temperature. As a result I do plan to get A/C installed in my home for those months when it exceeds that, and let the furnace handle it when it's below that.

There is no place in the US I'm aware of that stays "temperate" year round. And no, San Diego isn't such a place. It'll get hot there, I recall a peak of 120 degrees.
 
Old 05-25-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,401,064 times
Reputation: 8929
Quote:
Originally Posted by revelated View Post
Wow. You just said San Diego as a city that doesn't need A/C? Really?

This is the problem with such questions. "Comfort" is a subjective word that changes by the individual.

I live in the Pacific Northwest. It's average of 60 degrees up here. Furnaces are common, A/C is not. Why? It only stays hot maybe 4 months out of the year. But the problem is that what is "hot" to me is "perfect" to someone else.

I feel that 60-70 degrees on the spot is the perfect temperature. As a result I do plan to get A/C installed in my home for those months when it exceeds that, and let the furnace handle it when it's below that.

There is no place in the US I'm aware of that stays "temperate" year round. And no, San Diego isn't such a place. It'll get hot there, I recall a peak of 120 degrees.
It's never gotten 120 degrees in the city of San Diego, maybe out in the deserts.

The coastal zone of San Diego stays very temperate year round, it's warmest month average high is 76/77. I lived 9 years in San Diego and none of my homes had AC and I knew very few people that had it either.
 
Old 05-25-2015, 12:00 PM
 
Location: LBC
4,155 posts, read 4,482,199 times
Reputation: 3543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
It's never gotten 120 degrees in the city of San Diego, maybe out in the deserts.

The coastal zone of San Diego stays very temperate year round, it's warmest month average high is 76/77. I lived 9 years in San Diego and none of my homes had AC and I knew very few people that had it either.
Me neither. Anybody disputing this has never lived in coastal CA.
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