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Old 05-25-2015, 12:02 PM
 
4,539 posts, read 4,829,942 times
Reputation: 3481

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when I lived in the Bronx we had no heat or AC, just need to find a good slumlord to rent from in a bad neighborhood and you wont get any heat or AC

 
Old 05-25-2015, 01:00 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,197,912 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
If an older home was already designed with the climate in mind no it's not cheaper to put in AC than it is to leave it the way it was designed.
No, all those designs in question would have to keep being maintained, meaning they would be more expensive versus just plopping an A/C unit, and maintaining just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Or they might end up finding it more ideal given how much more comfortable the temperature range is in CA to the human body in general. Some though I'm sure might prefer the familiarity if their home climate.
There are different optimal ranges for different people of different races, from different regions of the world. One group can find coastal CA just right, but others can find it too cold or too warm for optimum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
They also want to be able to actually sell the homes, no matter how well the home is designed good luck trying to sell a home in the South without AC.
Well, if time is taken to explain the fact that those designs would be just as effective in cooling the home as A/C, and without as huge of an energy bill, then people would buy such homes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Sure but it's clear your level of comfort is different than most people's.
Most people from where? America? Africa? Asia?

Again, different people of different races, from different regions each have their own optimal ranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
What kind of property damage do droughts cause? dead grass lawns? lol
Ever heard of cracked foundations?
California Foundation Works Blog - Foundation Problems


Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Simple fact that it's a more severe climate with more weather related deaths than the Western US.
As a whole, no; only a certain section of the South has a truly severe climate prone to lots of tornadoes, and super-cell thunderstorms. The rest of the South has a placid, marine-influenced humid subtropical climate, where thunderstorms can be dramatic, but are non-severe (just like those in the tropics). Hurricanes are a threat, but they can easily be prepared for in advance compared to lots of other natural disasters.

The true factor that causes weather deaths in the South vs the West is simply the South being large in area AND having populations over a larger area of the region, meaning more targets for damage from weather-events:
http://geology.com/articles/night-sa...t-night-lg.jpg

^Do you see how sparsely populated much of the West is compared to the South?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
That would be great but you're not going to mitigate it to the point it's cooler and less humid than the region naturally is without any development, which many people would still find naturally too warm and humid.
Yes you can. It's simple, utilize the natural convective properties of air; draw cold air down, while warm air rises, then cycle it through the structure. And you don't need A/C to make the home less humid:
Dehumidifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Yeah except for maybe 5-10 days a year during a heatwave. There's a reason all the poorly built and designed homes in coastal CA still don't have AC, they don't really need it.
So, I will ask you again; did you and those people feel comfortable, but only in a sufficient-enough way? Or did they feel comfortable, as in, luxurious, vacation-paradise, Heaven-on-Earth comfortable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I would hope so and that would be great. I still think AC would be needed but not used as much, which I agree is a good thing.
A/C won't be needed. Trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
I'll believe that when people are actually doing it.
And they are already.
 
Old 05-25-2015, 01:29 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,405,649 times
Reputation: 8936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
No, all those designs in question would have to keep being maintained, meaning they would be more expensive versus just plopping an A/C unit, and maintaining just that.
Then lets see some data or something showing that? It's not like AC units are free of any kind of maintenance and costs. Explain how it's more expensive.

Not really sure how you have to maintain high ceilings or an attic. Or how a attic/whole house fan would be anymore expensive than AC.
Quote:
There are different optimal ranges for different people of different races, from different regions of the world. One group can find coastal CA just right, but others can find it too cold or too warm for optimum.
And the optimal range for all the people that can afford it in the tropics are those temperatures only AC can provide lol.
Quote:
Well, if time is taken to explain the fact that those designs would be just as effective in cooling the home as A/C, and without as huge of an energy bill, then people would buy such homes.
Wishful thinking....
Quote:
Most people from where? America? Africa? Asia?

Again, different people of different races, from different regions each have their own optimal ranges.
Sure but you need to quit making the assumption that everyone from tropical climates automatically "prefer" hotter and more humid weather.
Quote:
Ever heard of cracked foundations?
California Foundation Works Blog - Foundation Problems
And exactly how much of a problem is this? You have any figures that even show it being significant or just more baseless assumptions?
Quote:
As a whole, no; only a certain section of the South has a truly severe climate prone to lots of tornadoes, and super-cell thunderstorms. The rest of the South has a placid, marine-influenced humid subtropical climate, where thunderstorms can be dramatic, but are non-severe (just like those in the tropics). Hurricanes are a threat, but they can easily be prepared for in advance compared to lots of other natural disasters.

The true factor that causes weather deaths in the South vs the West is simply the South being large in area AND having populations over a larger area of the region, meaning more targets for damage from weather-events:
http://geology.com/articles/night-sa...t-night-lg.jpg

^Do you see how sparsely populated much of the West is compared to the South?
Everywhere in the South gets severe thunderstorms. Have you never had a severe thunderstorm warning where you live? The South's climate is anything but placid and everyone else knows that except you. I guess you're smarter than all the experts right? They're wrong and the South actually has a a "placid" easy climate that never experiences severe weather?
Quote:
Yes you can. It's simple, utilize the natural convective properties of air; draw cold air down, while warm air rises, then cycle it through the structure. And you don't need A/C to make the home less humid:
Dehumidifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm talking about the outside temperature, not inside as the topic was UHI. Without any development the South would still be too hot and humid for many.
Quote:
So, I will ask you again; did you and those people feel comfortable, but only in a sufficient-enough way? Or did they feel comfortable, as in, luxurious, vacation-paradise, Heaven-on-Earth comfortable?
LOL, are you serious? So now you're trying to nitpick on how comfortable I actually was in some lame attempt to try to tell me I needed more than just fans and windows in SD? Ask anyone that has lived within 5 miles of the coast, most will tell you AC is not needed overall and it's comfortable. The natural inside temperature of my home the vast majority of the time was what people set their thermostats to and have to use AC or heat to get it to that. Living in such an extreme climate like the South I'm sure it's hard to fathom just windows and fans keeping you comfortable but coastal California's climate is seriously that mild and nice. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to experience living in such a comfortable climate.
Quote:
A/C won't be needed. Trust me.
Nobody trusts you on this subject, trust me.
 
Old 05-26-2015, 06:22 AM
 
2,639 posts, read 5,216,236 times
Reputation: 2352
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwguy2 View Post
Seattle needs heat during the winter, but does not need AC during the summer. (Except for 5 days on average). If you wan't to spend on AC, realize it is only going to be for five days. You be the judge. Better to just buy a fan and tough it out in 85 degree temps with 25% humidity. Seriously.
Lies. It's not up to you to dictate what people "need".

Comfort is subjective. If I find 75 degrees too hot, guess what? Your 5-day theory goes out the window. All of a sudden it's a 3rd of the year. Well worth getting central A/C.

You may think 75 is "perfect". That's you. Don't get A/C.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
It's never gotten 120 degrees in the city of San Diego, maybe out in the deserts.

The coastal zone of San Diego stays very temperate year round, it's warmest month average high is 76/77. I lived 9 years in San Diego and none of my homes had AC and I knew very few people that had it either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nslander View Post
Me neither. Anybody disputing this has never lived in coastal CA.
Ok so when I make comments, I make them considering a 99%'er, not a 1%'er.

99% of people don't live coastal because it's too frickin expensive. Coronado, La Jolla, Del Mar, guess what? Celebrities live there, that's how expensive it is.

Let's talk about

Santee
Poway
Temecula (Not San Diego County but still)
Miramar
Penasquitos
Tierrasanta
Mira Mesa

You know, where it gets HOT.

And the 120 is a slight exaggeration given your skin can't tell the difference between 111 (San Diego's current peak) and 120. Point is it gets extremely hot, and without A/C, you're suffering.


The bottom line is this: Comfort is subjective. The only way to deal with that subjective is to have both heat and A/C available so you can adjust to YOUR specific comfort level, not some generic globalized assumption of what should be "tolerable".
 
Old 05-26-2015, 08:36 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,405,649 times
Reputation: 8936
Quote:
Originally Posted by revelated View Post
Ok so when I make comments, I make them considering a 99%'er, not a 1%'er.

99% of people don't live coastal because it's too frickin expensive. Coronado, La Jolla, Del Mar, guess what? Celebrities live there, that's how expensive it is.

Let's talk about

Santee
Poway
Temecula (Not San Diego County but still)
Miramar
Penasquitos
Tierrasanta
Mira Mesa

You know, where it gets HOT.
A lot more than 1% of San Diego County's population lives in the coastal zone, more like a 25% - 33% and plenty of middle and even working class people live in areas where AC is generally not needed.

Yeah most people know those places get hot as they are inland but that really wasn't where anyone was claiming AC wasn't needed.
Quote:
And the 120 is a slight exaggeration given your skin can't tell the difference between 111 (San Diego's current peak) and 120. Point is it gets extremely hot, and without A/C, you're suffering.
Well I certainly could tell the difference, not sure why you're acting like it's some sort of fact that you can't. But either way an all-time record high temperature isn't really indicative what you're going to get 99.5% of the time so I don't really see the point in even bringing it up. San Francisco has gotten over 100 degrees several times yet it has the coldest summer of any major city in the US.
Quote:
The bottom line is this: Comfort is subjective. The only way to deal with that subjective is to have both heat and A/C available so you can adjust to YOUR specific comfort level, not some generic globalized assumption of what should be "tolerable".
Sure but there tends to be a range where the majority of people can agree AC and/or heat are not really needed, or at least form some sort of consensus. While a few people in coastal San Diego do have AC, the vast majority of people do not.
 
Old 05-26-2015, 01:43 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,197,912 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Then lets see some data or something showing that? It's not like AC units are free of any kind of maintenance and costs. Explain how it's more expensive.

Not really sure how you have to maintain high ceilings or an attic. Or how a attic/whole house fan would be anymore expensive than AC.
I'm not saying A/C is free; just saying that the system would much easier to maintain, and thus less expensive, than it is to maintain each and every natural design of a house built to the climate without A/C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
And the optimal range for all the people that can afford it in the tropics are those temperatures only AC can provide lol.
Nope, wrong, those people may not always like the temps A/C provides. And many people without A/C in the tropics still keep their like of life without A/C even when the options are available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Wishful thinking....
Think that way all you like, but you can't deny that lack of knowledge in the US about subtropical living is a huge contributor to thinking life can't be lived in the South without A/C.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Sure but you need to quit making the assumption that everyone from tropical climates automatically "prefer" hotter and more humid weather.
But you can't deny that certain types of people are better suited to such hot, humid climates, and thus have a natural affinity toward such climates than that of coastal California.

You also need to stop assuming that everyone hails coastal California as the best climate in the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
And exactly how much of a problem is this? You have any figures that even show it being significant or just more baseless assumptions?
You asked for an example of property damage caused by droughts, and I gave you one.

Foundation cracks may not seem significant, but it is such innocuousness that contributes to the danger; they might not even go noticed, and as a result, havoc can be wreaked on the house structure, including drainage systems, and pipes, before the owner even knows it.

Furthermore, crop and livestock production can be stymied by drought as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Everywhere in the South gets severe thunderstorms. Have you never had a severe thunderstorm warning where you live? The South's climate is anything but placid and everyone else knows that except you. I guess you're smarter than all the experts right? They're wrong and the South actually has a a "placid" easy climate that never experiences severe weather?
Coming from the West Coast, where thunderstorms aren't common, I know you are inclined to think that thunderstorms are severe, due to their epicness. But you have to realize that the South's climate, as a whole, is still can be considered placid and easy even if thunderstorms are a common feature; thunderstorms are run-of-the-mill weather in many tropical locales oft-said to have pleasant climates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I'm talking about the outside temperature, not inside as the topic was UHI. Without any development the South would still be too hot and humid for many.
Nope, the temps of the South would then be more in line with many famed tropical resorts of the world, which people all want to visit with no qualms. Actually, even with UHI, many areas of the South still have temps in line with such resorts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
LOL, are you serious? So now you're trying to nitpick on how comfortable I actually was in some lame attempt to try to tell me I needed more than just fans and windows in SD? Ask anyone that has lived within 5 miles of the coast, most will tell you AC is not needed overall and it's comfortable. The natural inside temperature of my home the vast majority of the time was what people set their thermostats to and have to use AC or heat to get it to that. Living in such an extreme climate like the South I'm sure it's hard to fathom just windows and fans keeping you comfortable but coastal California's climate is seriously that mild and nice. Maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to experience living in such a comfortable climate.
Again, how comfortable were they? Plain comfort is quite different from "living like a King" comfort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Nobody trusts you on this subject, trust me.
Because the facts/points I provide are often contrary to popular opinions. I know a lot of people may not trust me; that's why I post: so I can help them to, at least, keep new concepts in mind.
 
Old 05-26-2015, 02:29 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
15,460 posts, read 25,405,649 times
Reputation: 8936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
I'm not saying A/C is free; just saying that the system would much easier to maintain, and thus less expensive, than it is to maintain each and every natural design of a house built to the climate without A/C.
How? How do you maintain high ceilings? Attics? What exactly makes it more expensive to maintain? Please provide some sort of explanation b/c I don't see what you're talking about at all.
Quote:
Nope, wrong, those people may not always like the temps A/C provides. And many people without A/C in the tropics still keep their like of life without A/C even when the options are available.
Well actual residential AC usage says otherwise. I'll take quantifiable facts over your opinion.
Quote:
Think that way all you like, but you can't deny that lack of knowledge in the US about subtropical living is a huge contributor to thinking life can't be lived in the South without A/C.
You could problem lessen the demand and usage of AC, but I highly doubt you're going to convince many people to give it up completely, especially in the workplace.
Quote:
But you can't deny that certain types of people are better suited to such hot, humid climates, and thus have a natural affinity toward such climates than that of coastal California.

You also need to stop assuming that everyone hails coastal California as the best climate in the US.
I never denied that nor did I ever assume everyone hails CA as the best climate.

Quote:
Coming from the West Coast, where thunderstorms aren't common, I know you are inclined to think that thunderstorms are severe, due to their epicness. But you have to realize that the South's climate, as a whole, is still can be considered placid and easy even if thunderstorms are a common feature; thunderstorms are run-of-the-mill weather in many tropical locales oft-said to have pleasant climates.
I was simply going on the designation given to them by the National Weather Service, aka "Severe".
Quote:
Nope, the temps of the South would then be more in line with many famed tropical resorts of the world, which people all want to visit with no qualms. Actually, even with UHI, many areas of the South still have temps in line with such resorts.
And all those famed tropical resorts still have AC...
Quote:
Again, how comfortable were they? Plain comfort is quite different from "living like a King" comfort.
Very comfortable overall. Not sure why you keep squabbling over semantics here.
Quote:
Because the facts/points I provide are often contrary to popular opinions. I know a lot of people may not trust me; that's why I post: so I can help them to, at least, keep new concepts in mind.
While some of the facts you provide about natural cooling techniques can be helpful, everything else comes off as pure delusion imo.
 
Old 05-26-2015, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Miami Beach, FL/Tokyo, Japan
1,699 posts, read 1,597,041 times
Reputation: 722
Houses by their nature are designed to trap heat. You can raise ceilings, add more windows, but as long as it's an enclosed structure, heat will be trapped. When you live in a climate close to, or even above your resting body temperature, any trapped heat is not appreciated.

I know that in India many people sleep outside on the hottest days. They have specially built beds to block insects they build on their property, outside. That's their way of dealing with the hotter days. Here in Miami Beach, I can tell you all those homeless bums who sleep outside get cold if they're not covered, even in the dead summer. However, if you step foot inside a house that isn't ACed it will feel 'uncomfortable' at the very least in the summer. Not to mention the mold that can grow. So I AC during the day, and air at night to the sea breezes.
 
Old 05-26-2015, 03:05 PM
 
Location: LBC
4,155 posts, read 4,482,811 times
Reputation: 3543
Quote:
Originally Posted by revelated View Post
Ok so when I make comments, I make them considering a 99%'er, not a 1%'er.
So, because I've lived in coastal CA pretty much my entire life, that makes me The Man? Huzzah! Now, where are those reigns of power?
 
Old 05-26-2015, 03:40 PM
Status: "could've~would've~should've used 'have', not 'of'" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: A Yankee in northeast TN
10,457 posts, read 14,307,686 times
Reputation: 23204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Because the facts/points I provide are often contrary to popular opinions. I know a lot of people may not trust me; that's why I post: so I can help them to, at least, keep new concepts in mind.
Except they aren't 'new' concepts, they are old concepts, practices people have used for ages before the advent of AC. Concepts that went by the wayside when AC became widely available.

Nobody denies you can live without heat and AC, nobody thinks the south was a vast barren region practically devoid of life before AC.
But there is a huge difference between saying the south is 'livable' without heat and and AC and the reality which is that in current times most buildings are not optimal for such living. Most people also prefer the cooler less humid temps that can only be had with AC

The only places where it makes much sense are areas within a few miles of the coast lines, and only if the buildings are properly situated and constructed, and only if the people 'living' there rarely have to leave and subject themselves to the 'real world'. In other words great for those who are on vacation, don't have to work for a living, or raise families.

You keep preaching and working at it and maybe in another 50 -75 years you can convince everyone that the current situation can be changed. See to it that building codes meet the standards for your utopia and then maybe, just maybe you might get a few more people to agree with your POV.
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