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Old 06-19-2015, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,312 posts, read 26,320,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
You said the EXACT SAME THING in a similar discussion regarding German influence, and I gave you a similar explanation to no avail.
If I said that then you should post the quote. I don't remember making that argument. What I do remember saying is that German-Americans do not exhibit a high degree of ethnic consciousness and providing sources to buttress that claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Seems like you just argue your points to argue them, without considering other viewpoints, so you keep making the same circular arguments. I don't know why I can remember the specifics of what you posted (this isn't the first time I mentioned this tendency of yours) and you cannot, but it might have something to do with those regular $5,000 trips to Vegas "to find girls" and drink all night?
This is so off topic. And I'm not sure why you seem so irate.

My point was that I don't see why Wisconsin would have any more of a German "feel" than NYC would have a "European" feel. If anything, NYC would have even more of a "European" feel since there's been a steady (albeit much smaller) stream of immigrants from Europe since the end of the Second World War. Even then, I don't think NYC has a "European" feel. German Americans in Wisconsin, on the other hand, are many more generations removed from Germany, so I don't see how anywhere there would feel remotely German other than certain foods and things.

The argument we previously had wasn't about German influence. It was about German ethnic consciousness. I distinctly remember this discussion because I cited Russel Kazal's work "Becoming Old Stock: The Paradox of German American Identity."

 
Old 06-19-2015, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
3,451 posts, read 3,409,805 times
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Tall Traveler: "there are many areas which (have) a Germanic feel in the community"

BajanYankee: "What does that even mean?"

Me: A 10-point list of an area with a Germanic feel in the community, with links and images.

BajanYankee: Completely ignores long, detailed 10-point list, concentrates simply on closing sentence instead.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,312 posts, read 26,320,585 times
Reputation: 11778
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Tall Traveler: "there are many areas which (have) a Germanic feel in the community"

BajanYankee: "What does that even mean?"

Me: A 10-point list of an area with a Germanic feel in the community, with links and images.

BajanYankee: Completely ignores long, detailed 10-point list, concentrates simply on closing sentence instead.
And I still don't see how it has a "Germanic feel." Does Staten Island have an "Italian feel"? I would say no, but I would imagine it has more of an "Italian feel" than Wisconsin has a "German feel" since New York was the recipient of some Italian immigration during the 1960s and 70s.

Italian-Americans in New York are fully American. Staten Island doesn't have an "Italian feel," imo, other than pizza places and Catholic churches. I don't see Italians as being that culturally distinct from other Americans, but distinct from other Whites in the sense that they have a higher degree of ethnic consciousnes and kinship (which is why CUNY has affirmative action for Italian-Americans).

There are areas of Brooklyn that have a definite "West Indian" feel. That's largely because many people claiming West Indian ancestry are from the West Indies. My guess is that that will dissipate over time when immigration dries up and the next generation assimilates into general American culture.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
And I still don't see how it has a "Germanic feel."
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Just a few, from when I grew up (NE WI):

1. German language is spoken, and fairly commonly. Some places spoke German for 5 generations: The Wisconsin Town That Didn't Learn English for Five Generations | Mental Floss
2. There are polka bands. Everywhere. They dress in old Euro garb sometimes. They sing with German and Polish phrases. They do old German numbers. There is a polka TV show every Sunday broadcast from Green Bay that was there when I was a little kid (40 years ago) that is still on the air every week. Some people wear German clothes.
3. As a kid, when I went to church and people were in their Sunday best, many men (including all my older relatives) wore this type of German hat during cold weather:


4. Barbeque in (especially) eastern Wisconsin means one thing - bratwurst. On a hard roll with sauerkraut. With German potato salad.
5. The whole beermaking tradition. Milwaukee was once the beer capital of the world: Milwaukee: Beer Capital of the World. All the Oktoberfests around the state.
6. The whole German socialist political tradition. Wisconsin elected the first socialist member to US Congress via the German socialist party (see link at end of #6). Milwaukee is the only major US city to elect a socialist mayor, which they did several times. "Milwaukee was, among other things, an enclave of German-American radicalism, with some 24% of the city German born in 1895. It was there that the American Socialist movement sank deep roots." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-Democratic_Party_of_Wisconsin
7. Fritz. Hans.
8. The architecture that still remains today. Here is an article about German churches: Milwaukee Architecture: The Cream City
9. The names of places or references - Germantown. Etc.
10. Here is a quick German-influenced history and how much remains in the Upper Midwest, as a summary (nearly half the people in Wisconsin report German ancestry, the highest in the country): Germans in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and the Upper Midwest

This is just a quick list.
Discuss.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,312 posts, read 26,320,585 times
Reputation: 11778
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Discuss.
We're clearly going nowhere here. This is about the same as your "Chicago and Milwaukee are part of the same region" argument.

Nobody said that Wisconsin didn't have German influences or traditions that orginated in Germany. I'm simply asking how a place that has few people who are actually from Germany has a "Germanic feel." And I ask that because I don't think Boston--which actually has a good number of people from Ireland--has much of an "Irish feel." Yet I can see the argument that Boston would due to its connections to Ireland.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
3,451 posts, read 3,409,805 times
Reputation: 2896
Again, you never read a word of what I posted above. 50% of Wisconsinites have German ancestry. There are towns that spoke German-only for as many as 5 generations. The dress, architecture, music, traditions, language, foods, and many other aspects are quite visible to people who have been to these places, which by the way DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU. So thanks for adding nothing once again!
 
Old 06-19-2015, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
3,451 posts, read 3,409,805 times
Reputation: 2896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
We're clearly going nowhere here. This is about the same as your "Chicago and Milwaukee are part of the same region" argument.
And I have no idea what you're talking about here at all, but it's (once again) off-topic.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,312 posts, read 26,320,585 times
Reputation: 11778
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese plate View Post
Again, you never read a word of what I posted above. 50% of Wisconsinites have German ancestry. There are towns that spoke German-only for as many as 5 generations. The dress, architecture, music, traditions, language, foods, and many other aspects are quite visible to people who have been to these places, which by the way DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU. So thanks for adding nothing once again!
I read every word you wrote. As the child of an immigrant (my mom came here in the 60s rather than 150 years ago), I was curious to know how Wisconsin has a "Germanic feel" given that a lot of places populated with second-generation West Indians don't have a "West Indian" feel. These people came to the U.S. ages ago and probably have no connection to Germany whatsoever.

In New York's case, there are actually a lot of direct immigrants from Europe, so there are areas that truly do feel Russian/Hungarian/Romanian, etc.

Italian-Americans in NYC, who are more recent immigrants than Germans, don't seem to speak Italian, don't dress like people in Italy, and listen to the same music as all other Americans. There is Catholicism and food, however. The difference between German-Americans and Italian-Americans, however, is that the latter has a well-documented subculture.

Do I think that German influence is evident in aspects of Wisconsin or even American culture? Of course. Millions of American families put up Christmas trees every year. Do I think Wisconsin has places that feel German as much as Flatbush feels West Indian or as much as Brighton Beach feels Russian? Doubt it.
 
Old 06-19-2015, 04:26 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,902,573 times
Reputation: 4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
There's also the English influence on our ideas about politics, education, etc.
As explained in post 11, the U.S. education system is based much more on the German model than the English model. Obviously, that's a significant influence.

I'm pondering what nation we would consider most similar to us today except for the language difference.

Politically, Germany, like us, is much more a federation than the U.K., especially before the recent decentralization of powers to placate the Scots in the U.K. Germany, like us, does not have a monarchy.

If you look at foreign engagement, the British are perhaps more like us, but they are aggressively ratcheting back on their military capacity.

On topics like climate change, abortion, creationism, I don't believe either Germany or U.K. have the same political divide as exists in the U.S. Given that both Germany and the U.K have had female political leaders, they likely are much more gender neutral than the U.S. Both have national healthcare. Concealed carry laws let alone open carry laws are likely foreign concepts to most residents of either the U.K. and Germany. You might see heavily armed officers in European airports, but you wouldn't see a heavily armed civilian legally carrying an assault weapon with a 100-round magazine in any European airport, or likely anywhere in the world, as recently took place in Atlanta.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...604-story.html

In major ways, the U.S. is its own unique culture among the great modern developed democracies of the world.

So apart from the common language, I'm not certain the cultural similarities between the U.S. and the U.K. are as great as assumed by some posters in this thread. I suspect that the German and British cultures are more similar than either is to the U.S. Why am I wrong?

Of course, the western democracies are much more similar to each other than they are to many other nations, such as China, Russia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Last edited by WRnative; 06-19-2015 at 04:43 PM..
 
Old 06-19-2015, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
3,511 posts, read 1,713,952 times
Reputation: 2223
Apart from a few places the U.S feels more English than German. Although England has Germanic influences so you can make an argument that since the English language is Germanic, that everything comes from Germany. JK.

As you said Germany has more in common with England than the U.S but that isn't the question.
As you have mentioned their are several German-like enclaves scattered around the U.S but besides Fredricksburg and other similar places, the U.S is overwhelmingly English.
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