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Old 11-05-2015, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,221,608 times
Reputation: 5802

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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbern100 View Post
I am not taking it personal at all. I really dont care where you were born, I just know you said were raised in the north. No red blooded southern male is this wimpy to post all this anti southern crap .You post this
nonsense https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...-schools/5335/

So California, the home of Silicon valley and so much technological advancement for this country , has a bad school system and ranked 43rd in the nation? Obviously charter schools and private schools in the south bay arent coming into play here.

This stat you posted has Virginia,Maryland,Georgia, DC ,Florida in the top 12? Even if you dont put Maryland and DC (?) in the south, florida and georgia certainly arent lagging as you said. Texas is certainly at the top if you include charter schools and magnets
How States Compare in the 2015 Best High Schools Rankings - US News

I stand by what I said, the South has many of the best charter and private schools and top performing public high schools in the nation

These arent my stats

7 of the top 10 high schools in the national rankings in 2015 are in the south

Best High Schools Rankings | Top High Schools | US News

8 of the top 10 magnet schools in the country are in the south

Best Magnet School Rankings | Top Magnet Schools | US News

The Southern states make up around 35 percent of the US economy and the region that provides the largest percentage of economic growth for the nation, routinely the last few years over 40% of the nations economic growth.

If you are blind to the vibrant STEM economy in your own city and the amazing colleges like Georgia Tech ( Georgia Institute of Technology) , Emory in your own city, you certainly arent going to notice what is happening in the texas triangle,huntsville,nashville, research triangle in north carolina, etc
Hey easy Billy Jack, I did mention Emory and Georgia Tech and Wake Forrest and Duke already or, do you always employ selective reasoning? Also, one is considered a southerner until they disagree, then they are damn yankee....right? As it relates to schools, I don't care if we have a handful of good schools, overall, the educational system is lacking, period. I see you left off the stats I presented to you with Alabama, Mississippi are in the toilet, as usual....Louisiana is not much better...as usual...and I see you neglected to add those.....

Don't sound like a i'gnant redneck. If you think secondary educational systems such as Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Colgate, Penn, Northwestern, Purdue, Rensalear and others are sub-standard then you will find yourself in a small, small, small audience......I left off Brown, Amherst, Dartmouth and on and on and on....all of which, like ours, were there long before you and I were born.

And like Democrats, when you don't like the info, you start the ignorant anti-northern crap. It's BORING......be proud of our institutions...you bet.....do they need improvement? You bet....Georgia's drop out rate, for example, has creeped UP to 71%...it was at 67%....now go do your research and see how those other, much more populated areas, are doing much better....everyone doesn't go to a STEM school or magnet, or Calypso or yabadabadoo, do they? Most go to PUBLIC schools which are exponentially bigger measuring stick of just how well any one state is doing...isn't it?

Go ahead, have a rant, get it out of your system.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
5,616 posts, read 3,936,707 times
Reputation: 7917
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Biggest reasons for Southern growth..

- milder winters, lots of beaches and mountains
- low taxes, more businesses locate there
- higher minority population (that's most of pop. growth)
- Many people find Southern culture (respect for traditions, friendliness, relaxed attitude) appealing

The South has problems. There are large gaps in income and health between affluent metros and poor rural areas. Public institutions (schools, parks, universities) are often worse. Most transplants to the South move to affluent areas, so the bad areas are out of sight & out of mind.
Best response so far. I think you nailed it.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Nashville TN
4,925 posts, read 4,913,870 times
Reputation: 4778
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Biggest reasons for Southern growth..

- milder winters, lots of beaches and mountains
- low taxes, more businesses locate there
- higher minority population (that's most of pop. growth)
- Many people find Southern culture (respect for traditions, friendliness, relaxed attitude) appealing

The South has problems. There are large gaps in income and health between affluent metros and poor rural areas. Public institutions (schools, parks, universities) are often worse. Most transplants to the South move to affluent areas, so the bad areas are out of sight & out of mind.
Great post thats why I moved from MA to the South plus I have family here and I like the mild weather, low taxes and low cost of living and its laid back
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,713 posts, read 36,132,256 times
Reputation: 63310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
I generally consider WV a Southern state, but that's up for some debate because the whole state doesn't lean Southern. But the bulk of its Appalachian culture seems to line up more with that of VA, KY, TN, NC, etc., and the Appalachian culture in those states is but one variation of general Southern culture.
I disagree vehemently that "Appalachian culture" is simply a variation of Southern culture. It is it's own distinct culture.

Of course the further north or south one goes along the Appalachian Trail, the more distinctly southern OR northern traits you'll run across.

For instance - and this is trivial but it ties in with my point - one of the most popular foods in WV (and in Western PA) is pepperoni rolls. What the heck? You won't even find any mention of such a thing just a few miles down the road, so to speak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepperoni_roll

Same with "ramps." Ramps? Well, ramps are a foodie's obsession now, but they're rare, and they're distinctly Appalachian - and Richwood, WV is the center of the ramp universe. Until they caught on as a trendy food, you wouldn't find a ramp on any southerner's menu - heck, they'd probably never heard of them - though there are now ramp festivals in Tennessee (a southern border state) and New York (definitely not a southern state).
RAMP FEASTING IN WEST VIRGINIA - NYTimes.com

Look, the topic of whether or not WV is a southern state or has a southern culture could be debated till the cows come home. But let's just keep in mind that WV was CREATED because the people of that region specifically wanted to make it clear that they did NOT consider themselves "southern" and specifically refused to align with the other southern states during the Civil War.

So of course there are some similarities as there are with all border states - WV also shares similarities of culture with TN, OH, VA, and PA. But it's got it's own Appalachian groove going -and Appalachian culture is it's own distinct thing.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:29 AM
 
29,905 posts, read 27,345,109 times
Reputation: 18443
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I disagree vehemently that "Appalachian culture" is simply a variation of Southern culture. It is it's own distinct culture.

Of course the further north or south one goes along the Appalachian Trail, the more distinctly southern OR northern traits you'll run across.

For instance - and this is trivial but it ties in with my point - one of the most popular foods in WV (and in Western PA) is pepperoni rolls. What the heck? You won't even find any mention of such a thing just a few miles down the road, so to speak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepperoni_roll

Same with "ramps." Ramps? Well, ramps are a foodie's obsession now, but they're rare, and they're distinctly Appalachian - and Richwood, WV is the center of the ramp universe. Until they caught on as a trendy food, you wouldn't find a ramp on any southerner's menu - heck, they'd probably never heard of them - though there are now ramp festivals in Tennessee (a southern border state) and New York (definitely not a southern state).
RAMP FEASTING IN WEST VIRGINIA - NYTimes.com

Look, the topic of whether or not WV is a southern state or has a southern culture could be debated till the cows come home. But let's just keep in mind that WV was CREATED because the people of that region specifically wanted to make it clear that they did NOT consider themselves "southern" and specifically refused to align with the other southern states during the Civil War.

So of course there are some similarities as there are with all border states - WV also shares similarities of culture with TN, OH, VA, and PA. But it's got it's own Appalachian groove going -and Appalachian culture is it's own distinct thing.
Your points about cuisine can be said about other parts of the South, like Louisiana and the SC/GA Lowcountry. They have their own cuisine but are still part and parcel of the fabric of the South, so that's not a very convincing argument to me. And sense when is Tennessee a "southern border state"? All of the states it borders are Southern, LOL.

I used to work in north Georgia which is firmly Appalachian, and the accents, cuisine, religion, etc. were all pretty Southern. It was but a variation of what one could find in the southern portion of the state.

WV wasn't created because the people didn't consider themselves Southern; it was created because their interests didn't align with those of the Confederacy. In the Appalachian portion of other states, it was a similar story; you found much less support for the Confederacy in western NC, eastern TN, north GA, etc. And Kentucky, a Southern state comprised of a big chunk of Appalachia, didn't secede at all.

A West Virginian laid out his reasons for considering his state Southern pretty well in this post: http://www.city-data.com/forum/3369120-post7.html

At the very least, a nice chunk of the state can be considered Southern but it's a blend overall.
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:20 PM
 
1,308 posts, read 1,230,118 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I would add lack of unions, longer working hours, lower benefits, and low pay to the reason that industry moves to the south and contributes to growth.
Not always the case(in regards to low pay) many(would not say the majority but a good amount) at least here in the Raleigh/Durham area, have been able to not just move here, but move here with out a cut to their salary. Which is a pretty good deal.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:01 PM
 
1,308 posts, read 1,230,118 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
Yeah, but how about Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana......besides, some of those statistics can be a bit off as we all have found out.....a kid getting a 4.0 in Reynolds County Georgia lands a scholarship on Hope and then promptly fails out his/her first semester at UGA.....accident? Hardly.

While the curriculum is the allegedly the same, the need for teachers to hang on to the only gainful employment within 50 miles of said Reynolds County, with a pension!!!! is going to make darn sure those kids are going to look like geniuses from the trailer park.....as if.....

Kids have seen it at tech....rural kids with "4.0 GPA's" bomb in the first semester at Georgia Tech......it's not an accident....no one is going to convince me a school system, primarily poor and rural in this state is putting out the same quality of student as some of the more trying and affluent counties in this state. They just arent'. Are there some jewels in the crowd? You bet.....are there some that deserve every chance we can afford them? Absolutely....

However, having worked with these schools on their infrastructure, it's a miracle some of faculty is allowed to hold the job. It is, what it is.....look at their drop out rates.....county by county......

No matter, look at that list again....the southern states typically, not unilaterally, have poorer results in academics than their northern counter-parts and I take NO pleasure in saying that. It is....what it is.....
I'm pretty sure all that have been to college have seen both people from rural counties and more affluent areas graduate High School with 4.0 and above go to college and bomb out their first year. Just like many have seen them succeed. I think it is real linear thinking to blame it on poorer schools not producing quality students. Could be many things at play, simple culture shock, anxiety issues with going from a very low populated area, to large university in a highly populated area or simply the freedom that comes with not being under your parents roof(lots of people both rural, and kids that come from money that were sheltered a little bit fail not because they are not bright enough) many people are getting involved with things that hadn't back at home, end up not focusing on their studies and before you know it a kid that had a 4.0 or higher in HS is now on academic probation in college.

In regards to drop out rates, poverty is the main culprit, and there are several sub factors, how many people in the community have at least HS diploma, how do the parents regard education, if they don't the child won't, other things that come with living in poverty, you have children that have already seen murder, and regular drug use, some kids their only meal is at school. Pretty much they're things going on that would make a child not be thinking about school at all, even when it can be the way out.
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,321 posts, read 2,745,404 times
Reputation: 1464
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I disagree vehemently that "Appalachian culture" is simply a variation of Southern culture. It is it's own distinct culture.

Of course the further north or south one goes along the Appalachian Trail, the more distinctly southern OR northern traits you'll run across.

For instance - and this is trivial but it ties in with my point - one of the most popular foods in WV (and in Western PA) is pepperoni rolls. What the heck? You won't even find any mention of such a thing just a few miles down the road, so to speak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepperoni_roll

Same with "ramps." Ramps? Well, ramps are a foodie's obsession now, but they're rare, and they're distinctly Appalachian - and Richwood, WV is the center of the ramp universe. Until they caught on as a trendy food, you wouldn't find a ramp on any southerner's menu - heck, they'd probably never heard of them - though there are now ramp festivals in Tennessee (a southern border state) and New York (definitely not a southern state).
RAMP FEASTING IN WEST VIRGINIA - NYTimes.com

Look, the topic of whether or not WV is a southern state or has a southern culture could be debated till the cows come home. But let's just keep in mind that WV was CREATED because the people of that region specifically wanted to make it clear that they did NOT consider themselves "southern" and specifically refused to align with the other southern states during the Civil War.

So of course there are some similarities as there are with all border states - WV also shares similarities of culture with TN, OH, VA, and PA. But it's got it's own Appalachian groove going -and Appalachian culture is it's own distinct thing.
Kathryn, there are so many misconceptions in your post that I don't know where to begin.

First, West Virginia was created by a group of opportunists, with the help of the Federal government, to make their own state. They had little support from West Virginians, the vote for statehood garnered less than 25% of the states voters. One of the reasons that they could create the state was because the Confederacy, Virginia particularly, ABANDONED West Virginians to their fate, although they drained men and material from the state until the end of the war. Who do you think protected the Breadbasket of the Confederacy? It was mostly soldiers from West Virginia. At the Battle of New Market, it was mostly soldiers from West Virginia that saved the day for the Confederacy. At Gettysburg where was the largest Confederate cavalry brigade from? It was Brig-Gen. Albert Jenkins', from WV. I am really surprised at you for bringing up this old Lost Cause meme that is very untrue.

As for pepperoni rolls, those were introduced by Italian miners in the early 20th Century, like the enchiladas introduced into Texas by Mexicans. I grew up in WV and never had a pepperoni roll, though my mother did cook up chicken & dumplings, okra, hominy and a lot of sweet tea. The statewide food chain is actually Tudor's Biscuit World, biscuits & gravy.

And Appalachian culture is basically a southern culture, it really doesn't exist north of WV, as the study I mentioned in my first post showed very conclusively. The second most popular southern stereotype aside from the southern belle is a gun-toting hillbilly. That is not just Appalachian, that is part of the southern image. This is what one sociologist says about "Appalachian culture"-

"A second problem arises when 'cultural content' is described as a reality without any supporting evidence. Anthropological research shows that supposed Appalachian cultural characteristics either don’t exist, or are restricted to very small and highly specific locations in the region." Uses and Misuses of Appalachian Culture

As for the other things you cited in your first response to me, that was all anecdotal. While state employees can write what they like on the internet, the governor is still a member of the Southern Governors Association, and the state legislature is still a member of the Southern Legislative Council.

What really surprises me is that someone from Texas, a state whose southern-ness is often questioned, would take this hard nose attitude to the border south.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:24 AM
 
3,618 posts, read 1,565,094 times
Reputation: 2194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
Hey easy Billy Jack, I did mention Emory and Georgia Tech and Wake Forrest and Duke already or, do you always employ selective reasoning? Also, one is considered a southerner until they disagree, then they are damn yankee....right? As it relates to schools, I don't care if we have a handful of good schools, overall, the educational system is lacking, period. I see you left off the stats I presented to you with Alabama, Mississippi are in the toilet, as usual....Louisiana is not much better...as usual...and I see you neglected to add those.....

Don't sound like a i'gnant redneck. If you think secondary educational systems such as Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Colgate, Penn, Northwestern, Purdue, Rensalear and others are sub-standard then you will find yourself in a small, small, small audience......I left off Brown, Amherst, Dartmouth and on and on and on....all of which, like ours, were there long before you and I were born.

And like Democrats, when you don't like the info, you start the ignorant anti-northern crap. It's BORING......be proud of our institutions...you bet.....do they need improvement? You bet....Georgia's drop out rate, for example, has creeped UP to 71%...it was at 67%....now go do your research and see how those other, much more populated areas, are doing much better....everyone doesn't go to a STEM school or magnet, or Calypso or yabadabadoo, do they? Most go to PUBLIC schools which are exponentially bigger measuring stick of just how well any one state is doing...isn't it?

Go ahead, have a rant, get it out of your system.
???? Do my research. lol Georgia doesnt have a 71% dropout rate, it has a 71% graduation rate! Actually it is at 72% now and it isnt fantastic but ahead of some states like oregon, alaska, nevada and it will improve. Alot of states like new york ,arizona, etc have graduation rates in the 70's.You really arent looking at stats at all but making outdated assumptions Public high school 4-year adjusted cohort graduation rate (ACGR) for the United States, the 50 states and the District of Columbia: School years 2010-11 to 2012-13

You mention Alabama and Mississippi, a writer in forbes labeled Arkansas,Miss Louisiana and Alabama the "rust belt" of the south, but I think once these states like arkansas and miss. have larger metros that will change pretty quickly and I dont think thats true with Alabama at all. Alabama has Huntsville and Mobile and that new huge airbus factory and is booming, Alabama has one of the most improved graduation rates in the nation and actually has high school graduation rates higher than alot of states that you would think they wouldnt outperform .

I havent said one word about the north in my other posts other than I knew you were a transplant, I dont know why so many people dont look at the real reasons corporations and people are relocating and so many young and college educated are people are leaving and moving south instead of making excuses , "its only minority and immigrant growth" which is false, great article about the number of college educated people relocating to places like research triangle austin,nashville,charlotte,houston dallas etc. Southern metros dominate the the top 10 here for increase in college graduates migrating to southern states Forbes Welcome

Maybe the media still being centered in the northeast is a big part of the problem of peoples perceptions. Basically , the infrastructure and demographics have changed a great deal in America. When mercedes benz moved their american headquarters to Atlanta they wanted easy access to very good highways and the port in brunswick and the busiest airport in the world, Hartsfield.

“We think the infrastructure in the States has changed,” Daimler Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche. We will see what happens with GE Mercedes-Benz USA to Move Headquarters to Atlanta - WSJ

It is not just the weather and lower taxes are getting people to move to the south though I am sure it plays a part in relocations, certainly lower taxes and right to work states are big part of corporate relocations. I do think the beaches are much nicer as you go south, the seafood and all the regional cuisines in the south are great but the weather is not that huge of a difference between say the mid-atlantic and say north carolina but there are differences especially with snow. Having beaches and mountains are definitely a huge draw.

It is just a major change in the infrastructure and demographics in the country. People with kids dont change jobs to move to a region with inferior schools and wages unless they are just retirees, something is causing this massive demographic change in this country and it is not just a retiree being able to golf and garden and sail the south a good deal of the year , alot of it is a move to a more optimistic and thriving part of the country and young people starting their lives in a growing region. Every year these migration stats are very strong in the south, the south is now 50% of the housing starts in the nation

images from wikimedia commons




Last edited by floridanative10; 11-06-2015 at 09:06 AM..
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:46 AM
 
3,618 posts, read 1,565,094 times
Reputation: 2194
I think Kathryn and Bobbilee both make good points, as a musician who loves folk and old time music I definitely see strong ties with the folk and mountain music of west virginia and appalachia and the south, alot of shared Scot-Irish ( Ulster ) culture and music in the south with fiddle music and old time and bluegrass. Everybody from stonewall jackson to the fighter pilot and x-1 test pilot Chuck yeager was from west virginia, Yeager had one of the strongest southern accents I have heard. I think west virginia was ruled by unions for so long, it kind of set it apart from alot of the right to work south. West virginia certainly has voted more like the other southern states lately.

On the other hand, its funny how the media and alot of northerners stereotyped southerners as hillbillies and such when the south is actually booming and so much of the civil war "north" really was and is so unequal in wealth distribution and prosperity. You never hear about the conditions in southern ohio and appalachia and the rust belt up north, it almost like they just want you to believe everyone in the "north" lives in manhattan and works on wall street or lives in boston or chicago. I would like to read more about the confederacy abandoning west virginia and the union manipulating it into the union Bobbilee , are there any good books you would recommend?, I wouldnt doubt all that is very true, there were so many bad leaders at that time on both sides

Last edited by floridanative10; 11-06-2015 at 09:01 AM..
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