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Old 11-10-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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The largest remnant of southern heritage that MD (and DE!) have is how local governance is structured. Unlike Pennsylvania or New Jersey, where all land is part of some municipalities - incorporated cities and boroughs, and technically unincorporated townships which usually have extensive self government themselves - MD and DE follow the southern model where all county land not incorporated within a city is unincorporated, with all services provided for by the counties themselves. I always found it particularly astonishing that not a single suburb of Baltimore was incorporated.
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,744 posts, read 6,146,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The largest remnant of southern heritage that MD (and DE!) have is how local governance is structured. Unlike Pennsylvania or New Jersey, where all land is part of some municipalities - incorporated cities and boroughs, and technically unincorporated townships which usually have extensive self government themselves - MD and DE follow the southern model where all county land not incorporated within a city is unincorporated, with all services provided for by the counties themselves. I always found it particularly astonishing that not a single suburb of Baltimore was incorporated.
Your point about Baltimore isn't completely true. There are no incorporated suburbs in Baltimore and Howard Counties. Carroll, Harford, Ann Arundel, and Queen Anne's Counties all have incorporated cities and towns.

Last edited by KodeBlue; 11-10-2015 at 11:42 AM..
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:24 AM
 
Location: BMORE!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
So they don't teach that Maryland was historically considered a Southern state in public schools in Maryland?????
I can't give you a well informed answer to that. I don't know.
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:40 PM
Status: "RIP Solomon Tekah" (set 10 days ago)
 
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Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Good post.

Regarding MARYLAND, I think I was able to find some evidence when the term Mid-Atlantic began to spread southward. It seems to be around the late 1800s and early 1900s when Maryland began to be associating with the more Northern states instead of the Southern states.

1887 - Middle States AND Maryland Association of Colleges and Schools (academic)
1904 - The Colonization of the Middle States AND Maryland (history book)
1906 - The Classical Association of the Middle States AND Maryland (artistic society)
1911 - Association of Teachers of Mathematics for the Middle States AND Maryland (academic)

Note the word AND. Maryland was beginning to associate with the Middle States but was not yet part of them. Thus the historic Census definition makes sense. There was a proposal in the 1950s for the Census to include Maryland as a Mid-Atlantic state but it was not passed.

In any case to make a long story short, sometime from roughly 1900 to 1950, there was a change in Maryland. No longer considering themselves Southern (for the most part) but not yet ready to call themselves Northeastern - they increasingly adopted the Mid-Atlantic label and made it their own.
Good point. I just want to mention something regarding the parts in blue. There was enough of a push to get that proposed but I do think that there was more of a push to remain in geographic limbo (as you mentioned in the parts in bold).

I say that because MD has at least 5 outright statues to the Confederacy
-Lee-Jackson (in Baltimore)
-The Spirit of the Confederacy (in Baltimore)
-Confederate Women's monument (in Baltimore)
-Rockville Confederate statue (in Rockville, MD)
-Talbot County Confederate monument (in Easton, MD)
- A sculpture of Sidney Lanier in Baltimore (I could be reaching on this one)

Maryland did adopt "Maryland, my Maryland" in 1939. The now Lake Roland park use to be Robert E. Lee Park ( park was built in 1858 and took on the Robert E. Lee name from 1917 to September 2015...because a wealthy BMore resident requested the name in 1917).

Why Does Baltimore Have So Many Confederate Monuments?


Baltimore's Unlikely Confederates.

Talbot residents continue to disagree on Confederate memorial.

Montgomery officials want to move Confederate statue to Rockville Park.

Now, I didn't provide the links to prove that MD is Southern. It isn't anymore but I did provide them because it seems like people in positions of power in MD either supported these things to the Confederacy...or outright put them up themselves (to my understanding, Confederate soldiers returning to MD did really well for themselves). MD also identified with PA when it came to industrialization back then....but all of this just goes back to your point in bold.

Edit: I'm a Black male & the Confederacy was an ugly part of the US....I do feel that it's a little too late to remove the statues but it isn't too late to tell the whole story and not glorify the side that lost. MD's a mixed up state, not N or S.

Last edited by 80s_kid; 11-10-2015 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
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Oh wow. I didn't realize they recently renamed Robert E. Lee Park.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Roland_(park)#Name

There's been talk of relocating a Confederate monument in Montgomery County.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f65_story.html
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:22 PM
Status: "RIP Solomon Tekah" (set 10 days ago)
 
1,226 posts, read 581,653 times
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Oh wow. I didn't realize they recently renamed Robert E. Lee Park.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Roland_(park)#Name

There's been talk of relocating a Confederate monument in Montgomery County.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f65_story.html
Yeah, props to them on the name change...But it will be kind of difficult to outright remove the statues because they've been their for a long time. At least it's opening up dialogue and hopefully they can balance things out with more Union and abolitionists monuments).

They're hoping to move the Rockville statue by year's end. (We linked to the same source for that point).
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Native Baltimoreans have also referred to the city as a Southern city.

Quote:
The glimmering glass pavilions, pyramid-shaped aquarium and spiffy red-brick downtown baseball park that today lure tourists by the millions to Baltimore's Inner Harbor were little more than blueprints on a developer's drawing board when, in 1970, I first left the sleepy Southern town of my birth.
WEEKEND EXCURSION - How Dowdy Old Baltimore Turned Fashionable - NYTimes.com
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The largest remnant of southern heritage that MD (and DE!) have is how local governance is structured. Unlike Pennsylvania or New Jersey, where all land is part of some municipalities - incorporated cities and boroughs, and technically unincorporated townships which usually have extensive self government themselves - MD and DE follow the southern model where all county land not incorporated within a city is unincorporated, with all services provided for by the counties themselves. I always found it particularly astonishing that not a single suburb of Baltimore was incorporated.
The largest remnant of southern heritage in Maryland is Southern Maryland.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:34 PM
Status: "RIP Solomon Tekah" (set 10 days ago)
 
1,226 posts, read 581,653 times
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Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
I mostly (actually in total) agree, growing up I always thought I lived in the Mid Atlantic and NJ to me was always kind of the center of it, anything below MD seems a stretch to me. I mean it was tauht as a fact I was in the Mid Atlantic and reading here sometime it would seem that PA and NJ are not part of it, always confused me as I thought this was basically MA ground zero

I thik I always thought NY/NJ/PA - The Mid Atlantic was the lower part of the North East with New England to the North but maybe its just me
How would you describe the culture of the original definition (NY, NJ, PA) and does it really match up with the new flag bearers of the term now (MD, DC, VA)?
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Old 11-10-2015, 08:52 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,510,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
I see where you're coming from but how many from NY, NJ, and PA identify with the Mid-Atlantic label? A poster on this board asked me what I would call NY, PA, and NY if they weren't Mid-Atlantic....I said General Northeast because everyone I've ever ran into just from NY, NJ, and PA always defines there region as Northeast. That isn't the case with the MD/DC/VA crowd.
Yup. This. I just say I'm from the Northeast - because I am. Technically we may be considered Mid-Atlantic also, by some definitions, but I don't really care about that. New Jersey is solidly Northeastern, especially the northern part of the state (where nearly 75% of the population lives), so to me, this is the Northeast and that's all that really matters. I never tell people I live in the Mid-Atlantic. This is the Northeast where I am.
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