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View Poll Results: Legacy cities or non legacy
Legacy city 67 69.07%
Non legacy city 21 21.65%
No preference 9 9.28%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-24-2017, 07:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Here's my list of legacy cities. See if you agree....

Boston
NYC
Philadelphia
Baltimore
Wash DC
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Milwaukee

Someone may add a few more to this, but this list should be the basis.
Buffalo, New Orleans, and Newark should definitely be added.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:47 PM
 
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To me legacy cities would be defined something like this. These were the top 50 largest cities in 1920. Almost all of these cities have grown in size and land area. This has also translated into less density in almost all cases. However this represents a built environment of walkability as it was developed before automobile centric planning. You'll notice a few cities that I'd consider as non-legacy. However I'd wager if you were to tour the 1920 land area of these cities you'd notice a legacy built environment in stark contrast to the post-automobile suburban tracts they are known for.

https://www.census.gov/population/ww...0027/tab15.txt

.........................................Populatio n...Sq Mi....Density
1 New York city, NY *...... 5,620,048...299.0...18,796
2 Chicago city, IL......... 2,701,705 ....192.8....14,013
3 Philadelphia city, PA.... 1,823,779...128.0....14,248
4 Detroit city, MI......... 993,078........77.9....12,748
5 Cleveland city, OH....... 796,841.....56.4....14,128
6 St. Louis city, MO....... 772,897......61.0....12,670
7 Boston city, MA.......... 748,060......43.5....17,197
8 Baltimore city, MD....... 733,826.....79.0.....9,289
9 Pittsburgh city, PA...... 588,343......39.9....14,745
10 Los Angeles city, CA..... 576,673....365.7.....1,577

11 Buffalo city, NY......... 506,775......38.9....13,028
12 San Francisco city, CA... 506,676...42.0...12,064
13 Milwaukee city, WI....... 457,147....25.3...18,069
14 Washington city, DC...... 437,571...60.0.....7,293
15 Newark city, NJ.......... 414,524......23.3...17,791
16 Cincinnati city, OH...... 401,247......71.1.....5,643
17 New Orleans city, LA..... 387,219...178.0 ...2,175
18 Minneapolis city, MN..... 380,582.....49.7....7,658
19 Kansas City city, MO..... 324,410.....58.4....5,555
20 Seattle city, WA......... 315,312.......58.6.....5,381

21 Indianapolis city, IN.... 314,194......43.6.....7,206
22 Jersey City city, NJ..... 298,103......13.0....22,931
23 Rochester city, NY....... 295,750.....29.5....10,025
24 Portland city, OR........ 258,288......63.2......4,087
25 Denver city, CO.......... 256,491......57.9......4,430
26 Toledo city, OH.......... 243,164.......28.1......8,654
27 Providence city, RI...... 237,595......17.8.....13,348
28 Columbus city, OH........ 237,031....22.6.....10,488
29 Louisville city, KY...... 234,891........22.4.....10,486
30 St. Paul city, MN........ 234,698.......52.2......4,496

31 Oakland city, CA......... 216,261......45.7......4,732
32 Akron city, OH........... 208,435.......22.7......9,182
33 Atlanta city, GA......... 200,616.......26.2......7,657
34 Omaha city, NE........... 191,601.....36.9......5,192
35 Worcester city, MA....... 179,754 ....37.1......4,845
36 Birmingham city, AL...... 178,806....49.0......3,649
37 Syracuse city, NY........ 171,717......18.4......9,332
38 Richmond city, VA........ 171,667.....24.0......7,153
39 New Haven city, CT....... 162,537....17.9......9,080
40 Memphis city, TN......... 162,351.....23.4......6,938

41 San Antonio city, TX..... 161,379.....35.7.....4,520
42 Dallas city, TX.......... 158,976........22.8.....6,973
43 Dayton city, OH.......... 152,559......15.8.....9,656
44 Bridgeport city, CT...... 143,555......14.6.....9,833
45 Houston city, TX......... 138,276......36.5.....3,788
46 Hartford city, CT........ 138,036.......15.9.....8,682
47 Scranton city, PA........ 137,783......19.3.....7,139
48 Grand Rapids city, MI.... 137,634....17.5.....7,865
49 Paterson city, NJ........ 135,875........8.1....16,775
50 Youngstown city, OH...... 132,358.....24.8......5,337

Last edited by mjlo; 04-25-2017 at 04:31 AM..
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Center City
6,852 posts, read 7,801,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
To me legacy cities would be defined something like this. These were the top 50 largest cities in 1920. Almost all of these cities have grown in size and land area. This has also translated into less density in almost all cases. However this represents a built environment of walkability as it was developed before automobile centric planning. You'll notice a few cities that I'd consider as non-legacy. However I'd wager if you were to tour the 1920 land area of these cities you'd notice a legacy built environment in stark contrast to the post-automobile suburban tracts they are known for.
Perhaps this is true for some. But for a number of the sunbelt cities on your list, the infrastructure and development from that era has been razed and replaced with new, car-centric urbanism.
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Old 04-25-2017, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
Perhaps this is true for some. But for a number of the sunbelt cities on your list, the infrastructure and development from that era has been razed and replaced with new, car-centric urbanism.
Much of the development from that era in Sunbelt cities have been replaced with similar development in legacy cities, there wasn't as much development from that era to begin with in Sunbelt cities compared with legacy cities. On average, legacy cities destroyed more of their urban fabric than Sunbelt cities but they also had a lot more to work with, so the scars aren't quite as obvious; it's pretty much a percentage vs raw numbers kind of thing. For instance, in Philadelphia, a lot of historic buildings were demolished in the mid-20th century to create Independence Mall and in Atlanta, many historic buildings were razed in the 90's to create Centennial Olympic Park. They are both parks (admittedly of different types and Philly's is centered on an extremely important historic structure), but their surroundings are still different because Philly was always the more urban city, both extensively and intensively.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Center City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Much of the development from that era in Sunbelt cities have been replaced with similar development in legacy cities, there wasn't as much development from that era to begin with in Sunbelt cities compared with legacy cities. On average, legacy cities destroyed more of their urban fabric than Sunbelt cities but they also had a lot more to work with, so the scars aren't quite as obvious; it's pretty much a percentage vs raw numbers kind of thing. For instance, in Philadelphia, a lot of historic buildings were demolished in the mid-20th century to create Independence Mall and in Atlanta, many historic buildings were razed in the 90's to create Centennial Olympic Park. They are both parks (admittedly of different types and Philly's is centered on an extremely important historic structure), but their surroundings are still different because Philly was always the more urban city, both extensively and intensively.
Don't buy your argument. Much of the "history" in subelt cities has been completely erased. In many of what were calling "legacy cities," a portion of their historic areas may have been cleared to accommodate new development. To do otherwise would render them to be nothing more than a museum like Colonial Williamsburg. Truly historic cities can accommodate progress without selling their historic souls to the whims of developers. Compare walking around Philly's historic neighborhoods with Houston's. Ooops, where is that exactly?

That is one of the important reasons I voted for legacy cities as my preference.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:57 AM
 
29,927 posts, read 27,365,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
Don't buy your argument. Much of the "history" in subelt cities has been completely erased. In many of what were calling "legacy cities," a portion of their historic areas may have been cleared to accommodate new development. To do otherwise would render them to be nothing more than a museum like Colonial Williamsburg. Truly historic cities can accommodate progress without selling their historic souls to the whims of developers. Compare walking around Philly's historic neighborhoods with Houston's. Ooops, where is that exactly?

That is one of the important reasons I voted for legacy cities as my preference.
You don't have to buy my argument; what I stated is factual. Legacy cities razed more because they had more to begin with. If you dispute that, you're arguing in favor of 'alternative facts.'

Philly could have razed just as many of its historic buildings as Houston (and it did--perhaps even more), but you really wouldn't be able to tell that because, again, Philly simply had a ton more than Houston. I don't see why this is a problematic statement for you when it's plainly obvious.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:52 AM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,144 posts, read 1,520,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
Here's my list of legacy cities. See if you agree....

Boston
NYC
Philadelphia
Baltimore
Wash DC
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Milwaukee

Someone may add a few more to this, but this list should be the basis.
Similar thread.

Traditional Legacy Cities vs New Rising Cities

http://www.lincolninst.edu/sites/def...ies-full_0.pdf

Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
St Louis
New Orleans
Detroit
Birmingham
Cincinnati
Milwaukee
Buffalo
Syracuse
Philadelphia
Boston
NYC
DC
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Old 04-25-2017, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Center City
6,852 posts, read 7,801,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
You don't have to buy my argument; what I stated is factual. Legacy cities razed more because they had more to begin with. If you dispute that, you're arguing in favor of 'alternative facts.'

Philly could have razed just as many of its historic buildings as Houston (and it did--perhaps even more), but you really wouldn't be able to tell that because, again, Philly simply had a ton more than Houston. I don't see why this is a problematic statement for you when it's plainly obvious.
You're perhaps equating old with "historic." Big diff.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:37 PM
 
29,927 posts, read 27,365,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
You're perhaps equating old with "historic." Big diff.
Doesn't matter how you slice it, legacy cities destroyed more of both because they had more of both. It's simply a numbers thing.
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Old 04-25-2017, 03:50 PM
 
56,595 posts, read 80,890,793 times
Reputation: 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
To me legacy cities would be defined something like this. These were the top 50 largest cities in 1920. Almost all of these cities have grown in size and land area. This has also translated into less density in almost all cases. However this represents a built environment of walkability as it was developed before automobile centric planning. You'll notice a few cities that I'd consider as non-legacy. However I'd wager if you were to tour the 1920 land area of these cities you'd notice a legacy built environment in stark contrast to the post-automobile suburban tracts they are known for.

https://www.census.gov/population/ww...0027/tab15.txt

.........................................Populatio n...Sq Mi....Density
1 New York city, NY *...... 5,620,048...299.0...18,796
2 Chicago city, IL......... 2,701,705 ....192.8....14,013
3 Philadelphia city, PA.... 1,823,779...128.0....14,248
4 Detroit city, MI......... 993,078........77.9....12,748
5 Cleveland city, OH....... 796,841.....56.4....14,128
6 St. Louis city, MO....... 772,897......61.0....12,670
7 Boston city, MA.......... 748,060......43.5....17,197
8 Baltimore city, MD....... 733,826.....79.0.....9,289
9 Pittsburgh city, PA...... 588,343......39.9....14,745
10 Los Angeles city, CA..... 576,673....365.7.....1,577

11 Buffalo city, NY......... 506,775......38.9....13,028
12 San Francisco city, CA... 506,676...42.0...12,064
13 Milwaukee city, WI....... 457,147....25.3...18,069
14 Washington city, DC...... 437,571...60.0.....7,293
15 Newark city, NJ.......... 414,524......23.3...17,791
16 Cincinnati city, OH...... 401,247......71.1.....5,643
17 New Orleans city, LA..... 387,219...178.0 ...2,175
18 Minneapolis city, MN..... 380,582.....49.7....7,658
19 Kansas City city, MO..... 324,410.....58.4....5,555
20 Seattle city, WA......... 315,312.......58.6.....5,381

21 Indianapolis city, IN.... 314,194......43.6.....7,206
22 Jersey City city, NJ..... 298,103......13.0....22,931
23 Rochester city, NY....... 295,750.....29.5....10,025
24 Portland city, OR........ 258,288......63.2......4,087
25 Denver city, CO.......... 256,491......57.9......4,430
26 Toledo city, OH.......... 243,164.......28.1......8,654
27 Providence city, RI...... 237,595......17.8.....13,348
28 Columbus city, OH........ 237,031....22.6.....10,488
29 Louisville city, KY...... 234,891........22.4.....10,486
30 St. Paul city, MN........ 234,698.......52.2......4,496

31 Oakland city, CA......... 216,261......45.7......4,732
32 Akron city, OH........... 208,435.......22.7......9,182
33 Atlanta city, GA......... 200,616.......26.2......7,657
34 Omaha city, NE........... 191,601.....36.9......5,192
35 Worcester city, MA....... 179,754 ....37.1......4,845
36 Birmingham city, AL...... 178,806....49.0......3,649
37 Syracuse city, NY........ 171,717......18.4......9,332
38 Richmond city, VA........ 171,667.....24.0......7,153
39 New Haven city, CT....... 162,537....17.9......9,080
40 Memphis city, TN......... 162,351.....23.4......6,938

41 San Antonio city, TX..... 161,379.....35.7.....4,520
42 Dallas city, TX.......... 158,976........22.8.....6,973
43 Dayton city, OH.......... 152,559......15.8.....9,656
44 Bridgeport city, CT...... 143,555......14.6.....9,833
45 Houston city, TX......... 138,276......36.5.....3,788
46 Hartford city, CT........ 138,036.......15.9.....8,682
47 Scranton city, PA........ 137,783......19.3.....7,139
48 Grand Rapids city, MI.... 137,634....17.5.....7,865
49 Paterson city, NJ........ 135,875........8.1....16,775
50 Youngstown city, OH...... 132,358.....24.8......5,337
What is interesting is that Paterson is only .33 square miles bigger right now. Cities such as Bridgeport, Providence, New Haven and Jersey City are only 1-maybe 2 square miles bigger now. Syracuse is about 7 square miles bigger now and last annexed anything in 1928 or so. Rochester is only 5.5 square miles bigger now. I'm sure there are other Northeastern and Midwestern cities on this list that currently aren't much bigger in terms of land size as well.
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