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yes, obviously savannah and the sea islands are a winter nightmare.
cumberland in winter
Here is what I said:
A tiny sliver along the coastline from say Charleston down around to S. Texas along a sliver of the coastline say 20 miles wide is green, but not entirely.
And not entirely because even in that zone there are loads of leafless deciduous trees. But I stand by what I said despite your little photos of private gardens. The overall landscape is brown and dull and lifeless in winter in the vast majority of the Southeast outside lower Texas and Florida and the tiny sliver along the coast.
Do you need any more proof of it than this. Here is Columbus, GA in winter. It looks nothing like a subtropical climate. Just google Nice, France or Rome or Buenos Aires in winter and the difference is striking.
And here is Philadelphia in winter Jan 2015. At least our grass stays green in winter which goes a long way to making an area look alive in winter. The dead brown grass in the South looks wintry and dull. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ph...3e58c1!6m1!1e1
I know what you are saying and even parts of florida can have a dead look in winter as well, but you are talking a few months and I dont consider the southeastern coast to be 'tiny slivers". The reason I go to the south in the winter is for the beautiful coast.
The south does have the southern live oaks, pines, palms and the spanish moss and magnolias in the winter and stuff like camellias and alot of other stuff for color. I just like the fishing and boating in the south with the warmer water temperatures alot better in winter.
There is still tuna, flounder, seabass, speckled trout, clams, oysters, , sea trout, snapper, grouper to catch on the outer banks even in december. This guy in the outer banks is what I want to do in the outer banks around the new year in north carolina, but with some long pants and a jacket for the evening , looking like its going to be around high 60s and low 70s for the new year but getting real cold at night
How many times do I have to state "interior southeast". The places you both show are all along that tiny sliver of coast from Charleston on down to Texas. Again, show me pics of interior GA like say Columbus, or Montgomery, AL or Jackson, MS with lush green grass, broadleaf evergreen trees and shrubs all around, and no dead brown winter look. You won't, because you can't find it and you know it.
What is so wrong with accepting the fact that the interior southeast is a cold winter continental climate. And the climate is bizarre because though it may have warm or relatively warm winter averages, the extreme winter min temps that happen every year are in the teens. That turns grass brown, and results in the native forest being deciduous. If the native forest of Montgomery AL was going to be mostly broadleaf evergreen, it would have happened long long ago. Instead, the deciduous forest areas are growing in extent, not shrinking. I showed photos of Columbus GA in winter. Now show me photos of the same place or interior south lush and green in winter, and not pics of Savannah, New Orleans, or Charleston.
As you can see, heavy winter green does extend well inland in the Southeast. The deciduous trees are just a relic from the Ice Age, and are largely known to be dying off, instead being replaced by evergreens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858
Which is a lot more than it's going to snow in a tropical rainforest or even San Francisco for that matter.
And that is 15 degrees above normal, not sure why you would use that as some sort of sample. The 54 in SF is close to normal, 3 degrees below actually. Birmingham's average low is 36 for the month of Dec vs 46 for SF.
The Southeast is a huge region; areas like Birmingham can get quite cold, places on the Appalachians can see even more frequent cold and snow. On the other hand, in the Coastal South, the climate is such that centuries can pass before any significant snowfall occurs. Those cities in large areas of the coastal South have average lows from mid 40s to 50s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
They most certainly do look like icicles to me. That wouldn't be a surprise. Savannah, GA goes below freezing multiple times every winter. There has probably never been a winter there in history where it didn't go below freezing.
Every subtropical place has its time of severe cold; I can easily show you pics of snow in Med Europe, or subtropical South America. Even California once saw severe cold, with snow and ice as far south as the Big Sur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Here is what I said:
A tiny sliver along the coastline from say Charleston down around to S. Texas along a sliver of the coastline say 20 miles wide is green, but not entirely.
And not entirely because even in that zone there are loads of leafless deciduous trees. But I stand by what I said despite your little photos of private gardens. The overall landscape is brown and dull and lifeless in winter in the vast majority of the Southeast outside lower Texas and Florida and the tiny sliver along the coast.
Do you need any more proof of it than this. Here is Columbus, GA in winter. It looks nothing like a subtropical climate. Just google Nice, France or Rome or Buenos Aires in winter and the difference is striking.
And here is Philadelphia in winter Jan 2015. At least our grass stays green in winter which goes a long way to making an area look alive in winter. The dead brown grass in the South looks wintry and dull. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ph...3e58c1!6m1!1e1
You can find lots of deciduous trees in other subtropical regions as well, including SoCal, Med Europe, coastal South America, etc.
As you can see, heavy winter green does extend well inland in the Southeast. The deciduous trees are just a relic from the Ice Age, and are largely known to be dying off, instead being replaced by evergreens.
The Southeast is a huge region; areas like Birmingham can get quite cold, places on the Appalachians can see even more frequent cold and snow. On the other hand, in the Coastal South, the climate is such that centuries can pass before any significant snowfall occurs. Those cities in large areas of the coastal South have average lows from mid 40s to 50s.
Every subtropical place has its time of severe cold; I can easily show you pics of snow in Med Europe, or subtropical South America. Even California once saw severe cold, with snow and ice as far south as the Big Sur.
You can find lots of deciduous trees in other subtropical regions as well, including SoCal, Med Europe, coastal South America, etc.
Hmmm, how come so little in Hattiesburg, MS then. Is that not just about right on the coast of MS, or at least very very deep south.
Meanwhile, Naples Italy in February. This is what a real subtropical climate looks like in winter. Hattiesburg, MS is much closer to the equator, and even has warmer winter averages than Naples. But yet Hattiesburg looks like a brown barren winter landscape because it is a flawed subtropical climate. The flaw is the extreme Arctic air that comes down every winter and takes temps down into the teens, while that never ever happen in Naples, Italy.
Heck, look at the difference with what grows in Naples vs Hattiesburg. You can't grow any of these palms trees in places like Hattiesburg or Columbus, GA.
When will you finally throw in the towel and admit the vast majority of the SE look like a cold continental climate in winter, and is not subtropical. The tiny sliver along the coast, yeah I agree is green in winter, albeit with bouts of freezing weather, but the as soon as you go 20 or so miles inland it gets very brown and dead looking.
Meanwhile, Naples Italy in February. This is what a real subtropical climate looks like in winter. Hattiesburg, MS is much closer to the equator, and even has warmer winter averages than Naples. But yet Hattiesburg looks like a brown barren winter landscape because it is a flawed subtropical climate. The flaw is the extreme Arctic air that comes down every winter and takes temps down into the teens, while that never ever happen in Naples, Italy.
Heck, look at the difference with what grows in Naples vs Hattiesburg. You can't grow any of these palms trees in places like Hattiesburg or Columbus, GA.
When will you finally throw in the towel and admit the vast majority of the SE look like a cold continental climate in winter, and is not subtropical. The tiny sliver along the coast, yeah I agree is green in winter, albeit with bouts of freezing weather, but the as soon as you go 20 or so miles inland it gets very brown and dead looking.
I just showed you a picture of intense winter greenery in Austin, TX, which is far inland from the Gulf. Therefore, you are wrong with your statement that all of the inland South is brown. Even the Hattiesburg view you put forth still shows decent amounts of broad leaf evergreens if you go 360.
You shoot holes in your own argument by comparing far inland cities in the US South to coastal Naples; that is obviously an apples to oranges comparison, seen easily by anyone who has the slightest grasp of logic. Why don't you be fair, and show the supposed amount of winter greenery that exists in inland areas of other subtropical regions around the world?
Plus, Naple's pictures look no better than what you can find in the Coastal Southeast US. I see far more impressive winter greenery in Houston, New Orleans, Charleston, Tampa, and Miami. The freezes, if any, that visit the coastal Southeast are usually fleeting dips to 32F just for some hours, when everybody is asleep, then when the sun comes, temps soar to the 60s. Those types of freezes don't do much damage at all to winter greenery.
The south does have the southern live oaks, pines, palms and the spanish moss and magnolias in the winter and stuff like camellias and alot of other stuff for color. I just like the fishing and boating in the south with the warmer water temperatures alot better in winter.
Well spanish moss isn't even that green and nor is it true moss. The Pacific Northwest is clearly the mossiest place, all you have to do is look at a poorly maintained roof. http://bestseattleroofcleaning.com/w...20Cleaning.jpg
Does that ever happen in the southeast?
Another thing that the Southeast has in the winter-time is hill cane and river cane, which are species of North American Bamboo. They're very green and never lose their color in the winter.
Well spanish moss isn't even that green and nor is it true moss. The Pacific Northwest is clearly the mossiest place, all you have to do is look at a poorly maintained roof. http://bestseattleroofcleaning.com/w...20Cleaning.jpg
Does that ever happen in the southeast?
But yes the southeast is one of the greenest places.
Those are some beautiful pictures Grega, the pacific northwest coasts and california all reach that 8 and above in plant hardiness zones, some amazing stuff out west. the south and west make up the top 20 states in biodiversity ranking and variety of species
Table A. Species Diversity by State Table A. Species Diversity by State
RANK STATE # OF SPECIES
1 California 6,717
2 Texas 6,273
3 Arizona 4,759
4 New Mexico 4,583
5 Alabama 4,533
6 Georgia 4,436
7 Florida 4,368
8 Oregon 4,136
9 North Carolina 4,131
10 Utah 3,892
11 Nevada 3,872
12 Virginia 3,803
13 Tennessee 3,772
14 South Carolina 3,701
15 Oklahoma 3,616
16 Colorado 3,597
17 Mississippi 3,580
18 Louisiana 3,495
19 Arkansas 3,415
20 Washington 3,375
common use photo
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
Hmmm, how come so little in Hattiesburg, MS then. Is that not just about right on the coast of MS, or at least very very deep south.
Here take a look. Sure looks subtropical to me:
Meanwhile, Naples Italy in February. This is what a real subtropical climate looks like in winter. Hattiesburg, MS is much closer to the equator, and even has warmer winter averages than Naples. But yet Hattiesburg looks like a brown barren winter landscape because it is a flawed subtropical climate. The flaw is the extreme Arctic air that comes down every winter and takes temps down into the teens, while that never ever happen in Naples, Italy.
Heck, look at the difference with what grows in Naples vs Hattiesburg. You can't grow any of these palms trees in places like Hattiesburg or Columbus, GA.
When will you finally throw in the towel and admit the vast majority of the SE look like a cold continental climate in winter, and is not subtropical. The tiny sliver along the coast, yeah I agree is green in winter, albeit with bouts of freezing weather, but the as soon as you go 20 or so miles inland it gets very brown and dead looking.
I know you dont like the southern republican politics tom , but you are just making stuff up now. Where is all this dead brown grass?
The most popular grasses usually have southern or caribbean names like kentucky bluegrass,st augustine, even fescue has a kentucky bluegrass mix, Cavalier Zoysiagrass out of texas A&M. Where are all these brown lawns? most of the south has maybe two months of cold, usually just february , I think many southerners would have their landscapers heads if their lawn turned brown because of february ?
I agree parts of the inland south have alot of deciduous trees that give a dead look in winter, but they dont have to plant those, even most inland cities are 7a-7b+ and most are 8+ in plant hardiness zones, most could have alot more evergreens and palms and plants if they would just plant a different variety of trees, charleston or wilmington or beaufort and the coastal cities farther south rarely feel dead with palms, even in the winter. South carolina even has the sabal palm on its state flag
your comment about not growing palms in hattiesburg , why wouldnt you be able to grow many types of palms in hattiesburg?
palm tree hattiesburg
I dont know why you are so obsessed about the occasional cold snap in the south and a pure subtropical climate, unless you are planning to get into commercial citrus growing or something. While growing citrus commercially is probably not possible in most southern states outside florida texas and louisiana, there are hardy citrus plants and trees everywhere in the south.
One of my dads favorite places to buy citrus trees is in south carolina, 40 minutes from the coast! he has to take care for some frost on some of the less hardier citrus, just like commercial growers do but its amazing what can be grown in 7b-8+ hardiness zones and alot of sunshine and heat to ripen
mckenzies nursery and citrus farm scranton sc Mckenzie-Farms
Mckenzie started his citrus farm after having a wild grapefruit near charleston sc, amazing variety of hardy citrus that can even be grown up to some 7b regions
they sell everything from kumquats,, satsuma oranges, tangerines, even some lemon and lime plants,though the hardier lime types dont taste great, mainly for aesthetics and cooking
even a bittersweet grapefruit
You said you visit mobile, irregardless of the carnival and mardi gras atmosphere there, how can you visit mobile and not be fascinated by all the wildlife and plants there, just in parts of alabama you can grow asian persimmons ,paw paw, passion fruit, pomegranates ,satsuma orange, even banana trees and kiwi and even one type of avocado closer to the gulf
This the least cold resistant citrus there is outside of limes, probably takes some care but worth it just for the aesthetics
a lemon tree mobile alabama
satsuma tree alabama
Even inland cities in the upland south have very mild winters , I highly doubt people even in upland southern cities like raleigh or nashville own a snow blower or shovel, why would they,maybe one month a year of really cold weather in february and the occasional snow or ice storm, raleigh averages around 4 inches a year.
this is what happens when it lightly snows it the south,cars blow up , groceries stores are packed.
snowpocalypse. lol
pic from raleigh snow storm
Its not just geese and ducks and many types of birds who migrate to the south in the winter, the south is the largest region in the country and the migration of people to the south in the last 20-30 years probably represents the largest migration of people in american history, alot of it is poor government and high taxes up north and a better job market in the south but alot if is better weather and milder winters.
There are amazing amount of things you can grow in the south and those 7b-8-11 hardiness zones in so much of the south
Last edited by floridanative10; 12-18-2015 at 11:26 AM..
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