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Old 04-12-2016, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles,CA & Scottsdale, AZ
1,934 posts, read 1,711,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
I've been. I visited a friend at ASU. I can't say I absolutely hate it. There are positives. Tempe and Scottsdale I enjoyed. But from a personal level, it's a city I would never want to live in. It's not just Phoenix. I wouldn't live in any sunbelt city that lacks a true feeling of urban city living. There are only a handful of cities I actually would be happy living in, another few that I would be ok with if I had to move there for a job. But most of the US is just far too suburban, remote and conservative for me.

But the city can't shake its history. Like I said, the lack of urbanity in Phoenix is a major turnoff for me, but it is for many other cities as well. However, the other cities don't have the history that Phoenix does. Either that, or they've been able to shake that history off. As a still relatively new city, it will probably come one day. It's much more liberal than it has been in the past. Give it some time and I'm sure it will be able to remove that history from peoples' memories. But I still won't like it since it's not urban enough for me. But I'd also still never like about 90% of American cities lol. I really only like the most urban cities like Chicago, NYC, Boston, DC, and Philly. So that's not a personal grudge against Phoenix. It's just another factor in me disliking the city.

But yeah, in that thread, I was extremely shocked as to how Phoenix was seen by so many as a city that represents the Southwest. I voted Tucson because AZ is seen as the epitome of the Southwest, and Tucson is the city that best represents the history and culture of the region.

My dislike of Phoenix is not a blanket statement without reason. A lot of people from SoCal know Phoenix pretty well. Many of us have been or even have family/friends that have moved there. And like I said, the ones I know that ended up moving there were more times than not quite conservative or simply desperate for that SoCal lifestyle, but couldn't afford a SFH in the area. The ones that moved to Denver were more times than not quite liberal. Phoenix is infamous in SoCal for being an anomaly to the entire area and not fitting in. All my friends from the Midwest that moved there had no idea about the history and culture of the city. Some adapted and loved it. Others ran away as fast as they could.

Again, to each their own. It's not a personal grudge against just Phoenix. It's just a city that is mentioned more often in this forum. I dislike most major cities that lack true urban downtown living (basically the who sunbelt, though Dallas and Austin are picking up the pace and changing that). I don't like tract homes and the suburbia. Every city has that. It's not something I have against JUST Phoenix. However, the added history and the xenophobia that did exist strongly and still exists somewhat today of Phoenix is where it loses even more points to me. The Mexicans I met that moved to Louisville to escape the racism and xenophobia still shocked me though. I couldn't believe they would move here to escape that. I can't comment personally on that since I'm not Mexican, but from an objective viewpoint, that's pretty bad that in 2016 Mexicans feel the effects of racism strongly enough to move from Phoenix to Louisville. I forgot how long they had been here, but it wasn't just a few weeks. It was a while. And they said they've never experienced any type of racism towards them since they moved here. Again, my experiences with people are just MY experiences. Everyone's experiences are different, but based on my experiences with the city, people from the city, people that move to the city, knowing the city's history, etc. I do dislike it. And I know there are people who flat out hate LA and wish it would fall into the ocean while burning to the ground and being smited by God and Zeus themselves. To each their own. That doesn't change the history that you outlined so well as to why Phoenix boomed/is still booming compared to other cities in the region. The reasonings behind that boom and the people it attracts are not appealing to me.

I've never been to Santa Fe, but I feel like I would enjoy it. Idk about living since it's too small for me, but its history is much more appealing to me. I love how hard the city tries to preserve its character and history. That's probably a turn off, on top of the snowy winters, for most people looking to move out of the Midwest. My parents are even considering retiring there because they love the artist culture and the way the city has preserved its history and architecture. They're retirement age, but when they visited Phoenix, they were put off by its white-washed culture and middle-America feel. It's an inauthentic, fabricated culture and I think that turns a lot of people off. However, for the snowbirds and people looking to live the typical American lifestyle with the 4 bedroom home and the pool and 2 car garage and driving to the mall to go shopping and stuff like that, it's very appealing. And I'm not putting that lifestyle down. I'm just saying there are people who do truly enjoy that lifestyle and love the privacy of a large SFH and the privacy of their private vehicle. That, combined with the "whiter" history of Phoenix, has led a lot of people to be drawn there.
Wow that's actually shocking that you have Mexican friends who felt that strongly about racism in Phoenix, where the hell did they live in the valley haha. I have so many Mexican friends that live in Phoenix and they love it. I actually have two who moved to LA and are returning after they graduate college because they miss it so much. I'm also a minority and have never been subjected to racism in Phoenix. I find it hard to believe that they would move to Kentucky of all places to escape racism. This is just due to personal experience though, when my family traveled through Kentucky(mom's white dad's black) my mom was called a "race trader" by a guy at the gas station and when we went to a restaurant to eat food the whole place literally stopped and just stared at us. Granted this didn't happen in Louisville.
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:40 AM
 
7,018 posts, read 14,136,235 times
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Originally Posted by i'm not a cookie View Post
Wow that's actually shocking that you have Mexican friends who felt that strongly about racism in Phoenix, where the hell did they live in the valley haha. I have so many Mexican friends that live in Phoenix and they love it. I actually have two who moved to LA and are returning after they graduate college because they miss it so much. I'm also a minority and have never been subjected to racism in Phoenix. I find it hard to believe that they would move to Kentucky of all places to escape racism. This is just due to personal experience though, when my family traveled through Kentucky(mom's white dad's black) my mom was called a "race trader" by a guy at the gas station and when we went to a restaurant to eat food the whole place literally stopped and just stared at us. Granted this didn't happen in Louisville.
Yeah like I said I can't personally comment on that since I'm not a visible minority (gay and Jewish but I don't visually look like either). I'm just sharing the story of some Mexicans that I know from Phoenix. In a metro of over 4 million people, though, everyone will have different encounters with different people. Those were their encounters and stories. I was shocked to hear that tbh.

But yes, Louisville and Kentucky are two entirely different worlds. Louisville is much more diverse and liberal and accepting of minorities than the rest of the state. It's the reason the state dislikes Louisville. They view us as too liberal and diverse. We have an already large but growing population of Latinos. Cuban refugees and Mexicans moving for farming jobs mostly. A few Puerto Ricans thrown in the mix. But overall, the city of Louisville is much more diverse and accepting than outsiders think. It's not some diverse and liberal mecca, but compared to everywhere surrounding it, its a safe haven for minorities. As a gay Jew, I've never once experienced any type of discrimination. I avoid the rest of the state (except Lexington which has a huge college population with UK so it's liberal). I wouldn't be surprised if your story happened just last week those parts of the state are so bad. I try to stop off at gas stations as rarely as possible in the rural areas. But I'd be shocked if that happened to you in Louisville. Racism exists here just like it does in any other city on earth no matter how liberal, but hearing that there are Mexicans leaving Phoenix for Louisville to escape racism was shocking. Now, idk how exaggerated their story was, if at all. And I'm not Latino, so I can't even test this out, but I can't imagine strangers making up that story of why they relocated here.
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles,CA & Scottsdale, AZ
1,934 posts, read 1,711,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Yeah like I said I can't personally comment on that since I'm not a visible minority (gay and Jewish but I don't visually look like either). I'm just sharing the story of some Mexicans that I know from Phoenix. In a metro of over 4 million people, though, everyone will have different encounters with different people. Those were their encounters and stories. I was shocked to hear that tbh.

But yes, Louisville and Kentucky are two entirely different worlds. Louisville is much more diverse and liberal and accepting of minorities than the rest of the state. It's the reason the state dislikes Louisville. They view us as too liberal and diverse. We have an already large but growing population of Latinos. Cuban refugees and Mexicans moving for farming jobs mostly. A few Puerto Ricans thrown in the mix. But overall, the city of Louisville is much more diverse and accepting than outsiders think. It's not some diverse and liberal mecca, but compared to everywhere surrounding it, its a safe haven for minorities. As a gay Jew, I've never once experienced any type of discrimination. I avoid the rest of the state (except Lexington which has a huge college population with UK so it's liberal). I wouldn't be surprised if your story happened just last week those parts of the state are so bad. I try to stop off at gas stations as rarely as possible in the rural areas. But I'd be shocked if that happened to you in Louisville. Racism exists here just like it does in any other city on earth no matter how liberal, but hearing that there are Mexicans leaving Phoenix for Louisville to escape racism was shocking. Now, idk how exaggerated their story was, if at all. And I'm not Latino, so I can't even test this out, but I can't imagine strangers making up that story of why they relocated here.
Gotcha. Yeah my experiences in KY have put me off of wanting to visit the state ever again, good to know at least some parts of the state are liberal/open minded.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:01 PM
 
5,488 posts, read 2,874,906 times
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Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
After reading this article, the age-old question of why do people reproduce if they can't afford to raise the child in question rears it head once again. Equally vexing is the fact that one third of the homes have no parent that works full time or year round work. That means not only did the person reproduce, but it is compounded by the parent not contributing to the child's financial well-being. The state taxpayer, it seems, has to do this instead. This is a recipe for disaster, and is not sustainable in the long term. It has nothing to do with Mayor Berry or Governor Martinez either. This is completely on those irresponsibly family plan, or worse, do not engage in it at all. The parents are also ultimately the most significant when it comes to the outcomes of their children in schools, not the teachers. There are teachers that are more effective than others, but the child has to have discipline and a work ethic when entering kindergarten, and it must be fostered through 12th grade. There is definitely a matter of culture at play. Some cultures put a greater weight on educational attainment and family planning than others do. This is undeniable. Also undeniable is the paucity of good paying, private sector jobs in this state. The federal government owns a large percentage of the land, so it is no wonder they dominate when it comes to viable job placement here. Ultimately, however, the government is not profitable. So those who possess a greater ambition and work ethic are driven out of the state, and seek work elsewhere, unless they are in the professional class (i.e. doctors, lawyers, financial planners).

That said, I do not celebrate population gain like demographers and the chamber of commerce does. I think that zero population growth is the way to go.
I agree with everything you wrote. It applies not only to NM but anywhere that people are blaming the school amenities and programs, the teachers, the "village"... in short, anybody but the PARENTS who do not instill basic behaviors such as working for what is desired, being on time, NOT showing up stoned or high or drunk, looking farther down the road than instant gratification, doing tasks that are not fun but pay off later. This is THE big problem in my town in WA. The excuses for poor performance conveniently ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room, namely a culture that devalues discipline in study habits.

The lack of basic good habits carries over far from school, too. I have heard several times, business owners in my town openly lamenting, "Everybody says they want jobs, but nobody here wants to actually work 40 hours per week."
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,669,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
This post sort of affirms what I was trying to say about New Mexico, because I live here, but I learned a lot about the history of Phoenix reading it.

What you are affirming here is that white people/culture, however you classify it (xenophobic or otherwise) is generally more compatible with the economic system of capitalism than the other cultures you mention that live in the desert southwest. You make the claim that Phoenix is a more prosperous, economically viable city than Tucson and Albuquerque, and you also cited the difference in demographics.

Your post in essence exposes what I believe to be the political fault line currently in this country and it correlates to culture and race.
Yes that is more or less what I was trying to say, but I did go into detail. Phoenix's culture much represents the rest of the country, whereas Tucson and other places out here I have seen do not. I go into detail about that by explaining the prominence of Spanish in Tucson and how that could be off-putting to the average American (who doesn't know Spanish). And people don't like culture shock. And honestly Tucson isn't that big of a difference either, which is kind of strange to think about that. Tucson still is not in another country and thus still shares a lot of the same stuff.

I have noticed that New Mexico, and Tucson follows this as well, is frequently portrayed in the media for something drug-related. New Mexico for Breaking Bad, and Tucson was recently in a film called Sicario (I saw it in the theaters, enjoyed it but wasn't my favorite) that was about the illegal drug trade with the cartel in Mexico. When it comes to things like this, especially if the cartel is involved, almost very rarely is it portrayed in say, California or Texas. They are also border states, with Texas having the largest border, and can easily have these same issues. However Arizona and New Mexico seem to be the go-to states for this, which frankly I don't think helps the states' image at all. In these films typically they don't show the nice areas of town (let's be realistic, druggies don't live in the Catalina Foothills!) and I think many people equate the slums of Tucson to be all of Tucson. It's not true at all. New Mexico could definitely be facing the same issue when it comes to the media. Let's be honest, the media can help a lot for a state's economy. Look at the "Best 10 states for ___" lists and see how many Denver comes up on. People my age in particular (Millennials) frequently look at those lists. And people really do trust the media to have their opinions solidified based on these articles and then try to move there. I haven't seen Phoenix, Tucson, or Albuquerque in any of those lists in quite some time, unless it's like sunshine or something.

Really Arizona and New Mexico don't appear to be that much different. Tucson and ABQ appear to be similar in a lot of ways for an example. I thought it was important to note that Phoenix, and the state's history, is really the only reason why these two states see the majority of their differences. If it wasn't for that then I do believe they would be a lot more similar.

I'm not saying New Mexico needs to turn conservative to boom, like what Phoenix had to do. Maybe it can follow more closely to Denver somehow. Or maybe it can boom in a totally new and unique way. Places tend to boom for different reasons, who says it has to be O&G, outdoors, liberalness, low COL, or tech?
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:32 PM
 
Location: 3219'03.7"N 10643'55.9"W
8,121 posts, read 17,357,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :-D View Post
Yes that is more or less what I was trying to say, but I did go into detail. Phoenix's culture much represents the rest of the country, whereas Tucson and other places out here I have seen do not. I go into detail about that by explaining the prominence of Spanish in Tucson and how that could be off-putting to the average American (who doesn't know Spanish). And people don't like culture shock. And honestly Tucson isn't that big of a difference either, which is kind of strange to think about that. Tucson still is not in another country and thus still shares a lot of the same stuff.

I have noticed that New Mexico, and Tucson follows this as well, is frequently portrayed in the media for something drug-related. New Mexico for Breaking Bad, and Tucson was recently in a film called Sicario (I saw it in the theaters, enjoyed it but wasn't my favorite) that was about the illegal drug trade with the cartel in Mexico. When it comes to things like this, especially if the cartel is involved, almost very rarely is it portrayed in say, California or Texas. They are also border states, with Texas having the largest border, and can easily have these same issues. However Arizona and New Mexico seem to be the go-to states for this, which frankly I don't think helps the states' image at all. In these films typically they don't show the nice areas of town (let's be realistic, druggies don't live in the Catalina Foothills!) and I think many people equate the slums of Tucson to be all of Tucson. It's not true at all. New Mexico could definitely be facing the same issue when it comes to the media. Let's be honest, the media can help a lot for a state's economy. Look at the "Best 10 states for ___" lists and see how many Denver comes up on. People my age in particular (Millennials) frequently look at those lists. And people really do trust the media to have their opinions solidified based on these articles and then try to move there. I haven't seen Phoenix, Tucson, or Albuquerque in any of those lists in quite some time, unless it's like sunshine or something.

Really Arizona and New Mexico don't appear to be that much different. Tucson and ABQ appear to be similar in a lot of ways for an example. I thought it was important to note that Phoenix, and the state's history, is really the only reason why these two states see the majority of their differences. If it wasn't for that then I do believe they would be a lot more similar.

I'm not saying New Mexico needs to turn conservative to boom, like what Phoenix had to do. Maybe it can follow more closely to Denver somehow. Or maybe it can boom in a totally new and unique way. Places tend to boom for different reasons, who says it has to be O&G, outdoors, liberalness, low COL, or tech?
Another great post by you.

I think when it comes to using Denver as a comparison, the only comparable is Albuquerque. A lot of people like to compare these cities, but the economy of Albuquerque as a whole pales in comparison to Denver. A city does not need be conservative to be economically viable, at all, as displayed by Denver, Chicago, Boston, etc. The difference seems to be demographics. New Mexico is minority majority state, and the one city that can be considered somewhat economically viable, Albuquerque, is still miles behind these other cities that I just mentioned.

I think it is important to distinguish that Denver, as well as the other cities I just mentioned, is very socially liberal, but there is a vibrant economy within it where innovation is ever present. People with ideas, more entrepreneurial, and a higher energy. That's what you do not see, for the most part, in Albuquerque.

As for the rest of the state of New Mexico: forget it. Albuquerque MSA contains one out of every two residents in this state. That area is about 9,000 square miles. The remaining 110,000 square miles host the remaining slightly over one million residents. That translates into very, very rural. You have towns like Hobbs, Carlsbad and Clovis, whose economies are extraction based or agricultural. Los Alamos, Las Cruces (where I live) and Alamogordo are government job dominated.

Minus Albuquerque, this is a poor, rural state. That's why the only comparable I can use when comparing Colorado, Arizona or Utah to New Mexico is Albuquerque, when it comes to economies of specific metropolitan areas, not just entire states. Colorado has Denver and Colorado Springs, Arizona has Phoenix and Tucson, and Utah has Salt Lake City. What you could do as a subset comparison is to compare these MSAs. And sad to say, it is my belief that Albuquerque would be in the back of that bus, when it comes economic viability. The other states have poor rural areas as well, but the only state I think that would give rural poverty a run for its money in New Mexico is Arizona.
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:52 PM
 
594 posts, read 489,596 times
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"...desperate for that SoCal lifestyle "
Unbelievable, people still clinging to the salike outdated stereotypes.LOL ! What's next ? Getting eaten alive by GIANT SCORPIONUtahped by Mexican drug cartels ? Ohhh, don't let me forget TIRES exploding during summer all over. ..
Arizona continues to grow in spite of your hate and....opinions. The state is growing like a wild weed because of location. Proximity to California, Nevada, Colorado and Utah. Add weather to the equation also because love summer type weather. New Mexico has four seasons which is a negative in this situation because most transplants came from ' 4 Seasons '.
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:31 PM
 
7,018 posts, read 14,136,235 times
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Originally Posted by sexxxcblac View Post
"...desperate for that SoCal lifestyle "
Unbelievable, people still clinging to the salike outdated stereotypes.LOL ! What's next ? Getting eaten alive by GIANT SCORPIONUtahped by Mexican drug cartels ? Ohhh, don't let me forget TIRES exploding during summer all over. ..
Arizona continues to grow in spite of your hate and....opinions. The state is growing like a wild weed because of location. Proximity to California, Nevada, Colorado and Utah. Add weather to the equation also because love summer type weather. New Mexico has four seasons which is a negative in this situation because most transplants came from ' 4 Seasons '.
That's what many have said. The Phoenix weather (no snow in winter) is preferable for people escaping winters. NM's cities all receive snow in winter, so the snowbirds escaping that don't move there.

I have no idea what the rest of your post is even saying. But a lot of people want a SoCal lifestyle, they just can't afford it. Some move to Phoenix because they honestly prefer it. But there are others that move there to escape the winter like everyone has said. SoCal is many peoples' first choice, but Phoenix is the more economical option. It's a big reason why a lot of SoCal moves to Phoenix. They want somewhere that doesn't receive snow in winter and is generally sunny and not humid, but they can't afford a SFH to raise their kids in. So many have moved to Las Vegas and Phoenix where they can purchase a large SFH with a pool and have a family. It's why a lot of people bought houses in the IE during the 2000s--they couldn't afford LA, OC, or SD counties' housing prices, but wanted to stay somewhere warm, stay near family, and live in a SFH. People commuted 2 hours each way just to get that lifestyle by living in Riverside, Temecula, Corona, etc. In fact, one of my best friends' parents JUST moved to Temecula from coastal LA County. They didn't want to move far from family, but they wanted a bigger and nicer house and you get way more for your money out there. During the 2000s, I had a lot of classmates moving to places like Temecula, Murrieta, Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc. because their parents couldn't afford to live in LA County anymore. But they could purchase the brand new SFH in the safe neighborhoods with pools and good schools for less than half the price usually. My grandparents moved from Hacienda Height to Las Vegas so they could buy a new construction in a brand new subdivision with a pool, but still be close to my family in LA and not live somewhere with snow every winter.

Obviously this is not true for a metro of over 4 million people and Las Vegas of almost 2 million people. But it's not like it doesn't happen. It's a common enough thing that both Phoenix and Las Vegas are known for that. The people from SoCal looking to move to new cities wouldn't choose NM because the state hasn't done much to attract jobs. Without jobs, people can't relocate there. Even if people could relocate there, a lot will still choose Phoenix and LV because of the whole no snow thing in winter and they're only one state over. Utah doesn't seem to be a draw for Californians. Californians are moving in droves to Texas, though. Specifically Dallas and Austin, but mostly Dallas, and I guess for good reason since I've heard it called the LA of the South. The weather in Texas is hot in summer, but Californians generally enjoy the heat more than the cold. Denver is attracting the more liberal crowd for the most part and those looking to live as close as possible to skiing/snowboarding, but still be in a major city. Boulder, ASU, and UA are some of the most popular out-of-state schools I can think of for Californians. Everyone knows AT LEAST one person who went to each. The only other one I can think of that attracts as many of us would be Oregon. UNLV doesn't really.

Of course Californians are not the only ones moving to these other cities, but Phoenix and Las Vegas are two of the cities where you can get the closest to a SoCal lifestyle. Personally, I didn't enjoy being from SoCal. It's not for me. I won't move home. But it's impossible to deny that the rest of the country has some strange obsession and idolization of SoCal. Not everyone can afford it, though, and Phoenix is one of those cities that offers a similar lifestyle (suburban SFH with year round sunshine and beautiful mountain views and tons of outdoor activities, but just a longer drive to the beaches).
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,669,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexxxcblac View Post
"...desperate for that SoCal lifestyle "
Unbelievable, people still clinging to the salike outdated stereotypes.LOL ! What's next ? Getting eaten alive by GIANT SCORPIONUtahped by Mexican drug cartels ? Ohhh, don't let me forget TIRES exploding during summer all over. ..
Arizona continues to grow in spite of your hate and....opinions. The state is growing like a wild weed because of location. Proximity to California, Nevada, Colorado and Utah. Add weather to the equation also because love summer type weather. New Mexico has four seasons which is a negative in this situation because most transplants came from ' 4 Seasons '.
Scorpions aren't a game though, if anything big scorpions are better than small scorpions

On the other hand, no one wants to live in New Mexico because of "THEM"... I mean, giant ants?? I'll pass.
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Old 04-14-2016, 03:00 AM
 
594 posts, read 489,596 times
Reputation: 761
".....California lifestyle "
I guess paying a million dollars for a fix me upper is the lifestyle we can't afford huh...I guess we Zonies ARE lifestyle deficient.
I wouldn't trade this Arizona lifestyle for a million New Mexicos or Californias. My soul gets rest here. My mentals gets rest here. Peace of mind EVERYDAY is most important for me. Sunshine, warmth, mountains, peace ,relaxation. Things no amount of money can buy.
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