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Old 04-25-2016, 02:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
I get your point, but it's the greatest soccer league in the United States- a country of 325,000,000 people, unlike AA Baseball which is third tier in this country. We don't have the opportunity to go to Premier League games here in the states (well, aside from the occasional friendly played here). So as far as that sport goes, MLS is the best we've got here. MLS and soccer popularity are also growing rapidly in the U.S. (especially among young people). MLS games are drawing more fans than NHL and NBA games in most cases (both in terms of sheer numbers and percentages), and the attendance trend is moving upwards. I'd argue that MLS is far more comparable to NCAA football or basketball (which also don't have the same talent level that the best leagues do) than minor league baseball. No, the talent isn't on par with the best of the best, but it's still very good and getting better. It's also the best around as far as soccer goes.
That's because ticket prices are so low, and stadiums are bigger.
The Bruins for example have sold out 294 straight games. The constraint on attendance is the Boston Garden holds 17,565 for Hockey. Tickets in many cases are over $100. A ticket to a Revolution game maxes out at $48. The best tickets for the Celtics top out at over $500.00, the Bruins are typically slightly more expensive.
On top of that total season attendance is about 3x higher to the NHL as it is for the MLS. (7 vs 22 mil)
Also the MLS is skewed by Seattle (1/24th of the League) attracting 42K a game, which is more than double the biggest NHL arena's capacity.
Also if you look at TV ratings the MLS is around 200-300K a game, the NHL is about 1.2-1.3 million.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Somerville, MA
7,991 posts, read 16,045,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
That's because ticket prices are so low, and stadiums are bigger.
The Bruins for example have sold out 294 straight games. The constraint on attendance is the Boston Garden holds 17,565 for Hockey. Tickets in many cases are over $100. A ticket to a Revolution game maxes out at $48. The best tickets for the Celtics top out at over $500.00, the Bruins are typically slightly more expensive.
On top of that total season attendance is about 3x higher to the NHL as it is for the MLS. (7 vs 22 mil)
Also the MLS is skewed by Seattle (1/24th of the League) attracting 42K a game, which is more than double the biggest NHL arena's capacity.
Also if you look at TV ratings the MLS is around 200-300K a game, the NHL is about 1.2-1.3 million.
I know that the stadiums are bigger, but the percentages are also in MLS's favor (MLS, NBA, NHL). And I don't buy the ticket price argument either. Low prices don't mean sellout crowds. If that were true, you'd never be able to get a seat at McCoy Stadium for the Pawsox or the Dunkin Donuts Center for the Providence Bruins since the prices are so low. Total season attendance is irrelevant as that's a function of the number of games played. Most NFL stadiums see between 450-700k fans annually. The Charlotte Knights AAA Baseball team draws more fans annually than the Carolina Panthers. Would you say that the Knights are more popular in Charlotte than the Panthers?

TV ratings are definitely in the NHL's favor (and the NBA's). However, the trends are the opposite. MLB, NHL and NBA ratings are declining in most cases and stagnating in many others. MLS ratings are growing at a steady rate. Attendance numbers at MLS games are skyrocketing. I'm not going to say that MLS is more popular than NBA, NHL or MLB (it isn't- not really close yet). But it's a rapidly growing market- especially among younger fans- and because it's the top level of soccer in the U.S., it's not really comparable to minor league sports. The quality of the product continues to improve. We may reach a point where MLS rivals the NBA or NHL in popularity. Maybe even baseball since MLB fans skew towards older population groups and MLS skews younger. MLS isn't in "big 4" territory yet. But it shouldn't be ignored.
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
I know that the stadiums are bigger, but the percentages are also in MLS's favor (MLS, NBA, NHL). And I don't buy the ticket price argument either. Low prices don't mean sellout crowds. If that were true, you'd never be able to get a seat at McCoy Stadium for the Pawsox or the Dunkin Donuts Center for the Providence Bruins since the prices are so low. Total season attendance is irrelevant as that's a function of the number of games played. Most NFL stadiums see between 450-700k fans annually. The Charlotte Knights AAA Baseball team draws more fans annually than the Carolina Panthers. Would you say that the Knights are more popular in Charlotte than the Panthers?

TV ratings are definitely in the NHL's favor (and the NBA's). However, the trends are the opposite. MLB, NHL and NBA ratings are declining in most cases and stagnating in many others. MLS ratings are growing at a steady rate. Attendance numbers at MLS games are skyrocketing. I'm not going to say that MLS is more popular than NBA, NHL or MLB (it isn't- not really close yet). But it's a rapidly growing market- especially among younger fans- and because it's the top level of soccer in the U.S., it's not really comparable to minor league sports. The quality of the product continues to improve. We may reach a point where MLS rivals the NBA or NHL in popularity. Maybe even baseball since MLB fans skew towards older population groups and MLS skews younger. MLS isn't in "big 4" territory yet. But it shouldn't be ignored.
The percentages are only in the MLS's favor because they just don't count 2/3rds of the arena as "capacity" for example the "capacity" of RFK stadiums for DC United is 19,400. The Real Capacity of RFK stadium is 46,000. The Revolution have a "Capacity" of 20,000 in a 65,000 seat Gillette. So the Revolution with 14,800 fans/game last year claims to fill 75% of their stadium, not true, its less than 1/4 full.
NBA is hitting record highs, the last finals were the higher than the 90s Jordan era. Even the MLS is below the post 2002 world cup bump.
The NBA finals have draw about 20 million viewers in the US, the Stanley Cup about 6-8 (with a record in 2014) million on NBC (but 1/4 of the league is in Canada). While the MLS cup draws less than 800,000 viewers. Maybe if the NHL completely fails to gain any ground in the South what so ever (which success in Tampa+ Nashville say otherwise), the MLS won't break into the big 4 for a long time.
Of course all the major leagues will vary, with the Canadian Teams and Boston being bad, while small/non-hockey markets) like Dallas, Florida, and St Louis being good, the overall ratings are going to be lower in the NHL than in 2010-2014 when big shots like Boston, Montreal, Chicago, and LA were all amazing.
Same thing would happen to the MLS if Columbus, New England, and DC were great and LA, Seattle and Portland sucked.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Somerville, MA
7,991 posts, read 16,045,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
The percentages are only in the MLS's favor because they just don't count 2/3rds of the arena as "capacity" for example the "capacity" of RFK stadiums for DC United is 19,400. The Real Capacity of RFK stadium is 46,000. The Revolution have a "Capacity" of 20,000 in a 65,000 seat Gillette. So the Revolution with 14,800 fans/game last year claims to fill 75% of their stadium, not true, its less than 1/4 full.
It's irrelevant. Nobody would expect MLS teams to sellout an NFL stadium. Just like nobody would expect NHL or NBA teams to sellout an NFL stadium on the regular (with the obvious exception of championships and special events like the Winter Classic). MLS teams teams with soccer specific stadiums are drawing more fans per game and doing better percentage-wise than the NHL or NBA. 20,000 is about the sweet spot for MLS right now. That's pretty good.

NBA is hitting record highs, the last finals were the higher than the 90s Jordan era. Even the MLS is below the post 2002 world cup bump. The NBA finals have draw about 20 million viewers in the US, the Stanley Cup about 6-8 (with a record in 2014) million on NBC (but 1/4 of the league is in Canada). While the MLS cup draws less than 800,000 viewers. Maybe if the NHL completely fails to gain any ground in the South what so ever (which success in Tampa+ Nashville say otherwise), the MLS won't break into the big 4 for a long time.[/quote]

Playoff baskeball and hockey are more popular by a large margin. No argument there. But as far as season-long trends go, MLS is doing exceptionally well. Regular season ratings for the NBA and NHL aren't good. It's been pretty widely publicized. MLS, on the other hand, is getting better every year. It's attendance though, that's really skyrocketing for MLS.

[/quote]Of course all the major leagues will vary, with the Canadian Teams and Boston being bad, while small/non-hockey markets) like Dallas, Florida, and St Louis being good, the overall ratings are going to be lower in the NHL than in 2010-2014 when big shots like Boston, Montreal, Chicago, and LA were all amazing. Same thing would happen to the MLS if Columbus, New England, and DC were great and LA, Seattle and Portland sucked.[/quote]

This is the interesting thing. MLS has excelled in markets where many (including myself) wouldn't expect a professional sports franchise to excel (KC, Portland, Seattle, etc.). A lot of the success has to do with having soccer-specific stadiums close to the urban core which helps develop an identity. While the Revs are gaining popularity here, they're still struggling to develop their own identity because they play at the Patriots' Stadium in the middle of nowhere. Put them in an appropriately sized stadium on transit in town and you'll see attendance skyrocket. MLS is a young league. It's growing rapidly in popularity. On the flip side, MLB, NBA, and NHL are all at points where people are questioning their ability to retain fans (particularly MLB). MLS isn't "big 4" material yet. It won't be until the product on the field is a good deal better. But it's too popular to be ignored and it's only getting better.
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Bel Air, California
21,318 posts, read 21,867,229 times
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6 (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, WNBA) Sports League Metros...

New York
Los Angeles
Chicago
Dallas
Washington
Minneapolis/St Paul
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:12 PM
 
9,383 posts, read 9,529,334 times
Reputation: 5786
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
It's irrelevant. Nobody would expect MLS teams to sellout an NFL stadium. Just like nobody would expect NHL or NBA teams to sellout an NFL stadium on the regular (with the obvious exception of championships and special events like the Winter Classic). MLS teams teams with soccer specific stadiums are drawing more fans per game and doing better percentage-wise than the NHL or NBA. 20,000 is about the sweet spot for MLS right now. That's pretty good.

NBA is hitting record highs, the last finals were the higher than the 90s Jordan era. Even the MLS is below the post 2002 world cup bump. The NBA finals have draw about 20 million viewers in the US, the Stanley Cup about 6-8 (with a record in 2014) million on NBC (but 1/4 of the league is in Canada). While the MLS cup draws less than 800,000 viewers. Maybe if the NHL completely fails to gain any ground in the South what so ever (which success in Tampa+ Nashville say otherwise), the MLS won't break into the big 4 for a long time.
Playoff baskeball and hockey are more popular by a large margin. No argument there. But as far as season-long trends go, MLS is doing exceptionally well. Regular season ratings for the NBA and NHL aren't good. It's been pretty widely publicized. MLS, on the other hand, is getting better every year. It's attendance though, that's really skyrocketing for MLS.

[/quote]Of course all the major leagues will vary, with the Canadian Teams and Boston being bad, while small/non-hockey markets) like Dallas, Florida, and St Louis being good, the overall ratings are going to be lower in the NHL than in 2010-2014 when big shots like Boston, Montreal, Chicago, and LA were all amazing. Same thing would happen to the MLS if Columbus, New England, and DC were great and LA, Seattle and Portland sucked.[/quote]

This is the interesting thing. MLS has excelled in markets where many (including myself) wouldn't expect a professional sports franchise to excel (KC, Portland, Seattle, etc.). A lot of the success has to do with having soccer-specific stadiums close to the urban core which helps develop an identity. While the Revs are gaining popularity here, they're still struggling to develop their own identity because they play at the Patriots' Stadium in the middle of nowhere. Put them in an appropriately sized stadium on transit in town and you'll see attendance skyrocket. MLS is a young league. It's growing rapidly in popularity. On the flip side, MLB, NBA, and NHL are all at points where people are questioning their ability to retain fans (particularly MLB). MLS isn't "big 4" material yet. It won't be until the product on the field is a good deal better. But it's too popular to be ignored and it's only getting better.[/quote]

National numbers are not that great.
NBA's National TV Numbers Down, See Increase In Local Viewership - RealGM Wiretap
However, only 140/1240 games are nationally televised. So a decrease of 10% for 12% of games is more than offset by a gain of 4% (local broadcasts) on the other 88% of games.
Same story with the NHL.
In the NBA's case its what happens when the big names, Knicks, Celtics, Lakers are less successful than the likes of OKC, Golden State and Miami. An Thunder v. Spurs game has less hype than a Celtics V Lakers game, if both matchups had good teams.
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Old 04-26-2016, 07:43 PM
 
1,526 posts, read 1,492,791 times
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Detroit?
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:38 PM
 
539 posts, read 404,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
Soccer (MLS) will probably beat out the NHL in the next decade or so. Is hockey getting anymore popular than it is now? It'll never gain popularity in the south, yet soccer will continue to grow, much to do with our changing demographic.
the next decade or so LOL you are so far off its insane. Just look at the TV numbers alone, not to mention the fact the MLS is something like the 20 plus best league in the world at its sport while Hockey is number 1
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:47 PM
 
539 posts, read 404,405 times
Reputation: 630
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
I know that the stadiums are bigger, but the percentages are also in MLS's favor (MLS, NBA, NHL). And I don't buy the ticket price argument either. Low prices don't mean sellout crowds. If that were true, you'd never be able to get a seat at McCoy Stadium for the Pawsox or the Dunkin Donuts Center for the Providence Bruins since the prices are so low. Total season attendance is irrelevant as that's a function of the number of games played. Most NFL stadiums see between 450-700k fans annually. The Charlotte Knights AAA Baseball team draws more fans annually than the Carolina Panthers. Would you say that the Knights are more popular in Charlotte than the Panthers?

TV ratings are definitely in the NHL's favor (and the NBA's). However, the trends are the opposite. MLB, NHL and NBA ratings are declining in most cases and stagnating in many others. MLS ratings are growing at a steady rate. Attendance numbers at MLS games are skyrocketing. I'm not going to say that MLS is more popular than NBA, NHL or MLB (it isn't- not really close yet). But it's a rapidly growing market- especially among younger fans- and because it's the top level of soccer in the U.S., it's not really comparable to minor league sports. The quality of the product continues to improve. We may reach a point where MLS rivals the NBA or NHL in popularity. Maybe even baseball since MLB fans skew towards older population groups and MLS skews younger. MLS isn't in "big 4" territory yet. But it shouldn't be ignored.
"The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are commonly referred to as the "Big 4". Each of these is the wealthiest professional club competition in its sport worldwide, and along with the English Premier League they make up the top five sports leagues by revenue in the world"

right off Wikipedia, it's not that difficult to grasp.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Somerville, MA
7,991 posts, read 16,045,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelers1523 View Post
"The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are commonly referred to as the "Big 4". Each of these is the wealthiest professional club competition in its sport worldwide, and along with the English Premier League they make up the top five sports leagues by revenue in the world"

right off Wikipedia, it's not that difficult to grasp.
Who had trouble grasping that? I clearly said in the post you quoted that MLS isn't in "big 4 territory."

My initial post on MLS was this (in response to the comparison to minor league sports in the U.S.):

Quote:
I get your point, but it's the greatest soccer league in the United States- a country of 325,000,000 people
Never once did I say it was a "big 4" sport. My point is simply that it's a sizable and growing market, the product is improving, and that it's the best professional soccer league in the United States.
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