U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-27-2016, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Lubec, ME
908 posts, read 910,875 times
Reputation: 447

Advertisements

OP, what do you do for work?

Upstate NY isn't that great for the most part. Western NY is 5 hours from NYC. Lots of drug issues these days, especially in small impoverished towns.

Most of the school systems in NYS are broken, some very badly. The state is broke, taxes are high. Infrastructure is average to very bad. In WNY, you're going to pay some of the highest taxes in the country. Mill rates into the 50's. I don't know PBurgh rates, but up in NY they are abysmal. I don't know Central NY rates, but likely not much better. Elmira area is very depressed, Rochester is doing decently but has many issues too, Syracuse and Binghamton are closer to NYC but have many issues.

For a $100k house in my hometown, you pay $5300 in taxes.

Per capita incomes of most cities in upstate NY are at or below the poverty line. Many are food deserts - we do have Wegmans but they are in the 'burbs always.

I've lived in 5 different places in WNY and one in north-central PA 2 miles from the NYS border.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-28-2016, 12:04 AM
 
56,501 posts, read 80,803,243 times
Reputation: 12480
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
OP, what do you do for work?

Upstate NY isn't that great for the most part. Western NY is 5 hours from NYC. Lots of drug issues these days, especially in small impoverished towns.

Most of the school systems in NYS are broken, some very badly. The state is broke, taxes are high. Infrastructure is average to very bad. In WNY, you're going to pay some of the highest taxes in the country. Mill rates into the 50's. I don't know PBurgh rates, but up in NY they are abysmal. I don't know Central NY rates, but likely not much better. Elmira area is very depressed, Rochester is doing decently but has many issues too, Syracuse and Binghamton are closer to NYC but have many issues.

For a $100k house in my hometown, you pay $5300 in taxes.

Per capita incomes of most cities in upstate NY are at or below the poverty line. Many are food deserts - we do have Wegmans but they are in the 'burbs always.

I've lived in 5 different places in WNY and one in north-central PA 2 miles from the NYS border.
Not necessarily true and given the criteria, the OP doesn't have many other choices. Homes at that budget can be had in solid to nice areas of the cities, big and small, along with many fine suburbs/towns. Unfortunately, drugs are an issue in many areas in general and employment will depend on skills/education in relation to availability.

Taxes would have to be looked at carefully. In many cases, even with the taxes/tax rates, you still can make out better comparatively in terms of housing costs for similar homes. Overall COL is around the national average, if not a little below it for most of Upstate NY.

Per capita income is a bad measure due to counting by individual and most "older" cities tend to have worse economic metrics due to the lack of annexation of essentially suburban areas into the city like cities in other regions. Median household income in Upstate NY metros is also around the national figure for most of Upstate NY, give or take.

There are fine to very good schools/school districts throughout Upstate NY that offer a degree of walkability in villages, small towns/cities or even in select bigger city neighborhoods. This isn't including private and charter options. Brighton in its 12 Corners/Monroe Ave corridor, the village of Liverpool, parts of western Irondequoit and the villages of Fayetteville and Manlius are some examples that come to mind.

Wegmans has a store in Rochester's very nice East Avenue neighborhood: East Avenue - Rochester Wiki

Many smaller cities has one as well. Auburn, a small city about 30 minutes west of Syracuse and 50 minutes east of Rochester, has one in its nice, walkable Downtown that is 24 hours.
https://goo.gl/maps/wVUmaHrEYWR2

Auburn Downtown BID

History's Hometown

Many of their stores may be in or just outside of walkable suburban villages as well. Wegmans info: Wegmans - Rochester Wiki

Here is a list of train stations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate...ns_in_New_York

Each of the bigger Upstate NY metros have International airports as well.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-28-2016 at 12:46 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Rochester NY
1,244 posts, read 820,042 times
Reputation: 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
I've lived in 5 places in upstate NY. Some good, mostly bad.
Which ones were bad and which were good?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 10:20 AM
 
56,501 posts, read 80,803,243 times
Reputation: 12480
In teems of homes within that budget in Upstate NY, this may help, OP: RealtyUSA - Property - Property-List (Syracuse/CNY area)

Albany area, which is only a couple of hours or so from NYC: RealtyUSA - Property - Property-List

Rochester area: RealtyUSA - Property - Property-List

Keep in mind that property taxes are listed without potential property tax exemptions: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/exemption/index.htm

Public transportation info: RTS: Regional Transit Service > Privacy (Rochester area)

Home (Syracuse/CNY area)

https://www.cdta.org (Albany area)

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-28-2016 at 11:22 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Lubec, ME
908 posts, read 910,875 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Not necessarily true and given the criteria, the OP doesn't have many other choices. Homes at that budget can be had in solid to nice areas of the cities, big and small, along with many fine suburbs/towns. Unfortunately, drugs are an issue in many areas in general and employment will depend on skills/education in relation to availability.

Taxes would have to be looked at carefully. In many cases, even with the taxes/tax rates, you still can make out better comparatively in terms of housing costs for similar homes. Overall COL is around the national average, if not a little below it for most of Upstate NY.

Per capita income is a bad measure due to counting by individual and most "older" cities tend to have worse economic metrics due to the lack of annexation of essentially suburban areas into the city like cities in other regions. Median household income in Upstate NY metros is also around the national figure for most of Upstate NY, give or take.

There are fine to very good schools/school districts throughout Upstate NY that offer a degree of walkability in villages, small towns/cities or even in select bigger city neighborhoods. This isn't including private and charter options. Brighton in its 12 Corners/Monroe Ave corridor, the village of Liverpool, parts of western Irondequoit and the villages of Fayetteville and Manlius are some examples that come to mind.
It's very true what I've said on all accounts, and I don't fib to a 'foreigner' about the state of affairs. That's not fair to them.

OP, of course there are going to be small pockets (some suburbs) that are doing well. But they are surrounded by rural and urban areas which are in trouble. The three biggest employers in Upstate NY are government, medical, and education. That's because NYS is a huge bureaucracy.

Median household incomes in Upstate NY are not averaging at $52,000. Elmira, Jamestown, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Schenectady, Troy, Binghamton all have median incomes far below. Amherst, what probably can be considered to be the healthiest Buffalo suburb, has a median household income of $55k. If you live in Amherst, you are one of the wealthiest citizens in the Buffalo metro, most likely.

OP, $70k in Upstate NY is rich.

Albany is the only place where that is not true - because it is the center of the massive NYS bureaucracy. Albany median house income is $$54k.

With that being said, if you're buying a house here, within 18-25 years you'd have paid the value of the house in taxes, depending on the location.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 10:58 AM
 
56,501 posts, read 80,803,243 times
Reputation: 12480
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
It's very true what I've said on all accounts, and I don't fib to a 'foreigner' about the state of affairs. That's not fair to them.

OP, of course there are going to be small pockets (some suburbs) that are doing well. But they are surrounded by rural and urban areas which are in trouble. The three biggest employers in Upstate NY are government, medical, and education. That's because NYS is a huge bureaucracy.

Median household incomes in Upstate NY are not averaging at $52,000. Elmira, Jamestown, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Schenectady, Troy, Binghamton all have median incomes far below. Amherst, what probably can be considered to be the healthiest Buffalo suburb, has a median household income of $55k. If you live in Amherst, you are one of the wealthiest citizens in the Buffalo metro, most likely.

OP, $70k in Upstate NY is rich.

Albany is the only place where that is not true - because it is the center of the massive NYS bureaucracy. Albany median house income is $$54k.

With that being said, if you're buying a house here, within 18-25 years you'd have paid the value of the house in taxes, depending on the location.
I'm not fibbing...Yes, metro area median household income is around the national average for Upstate NY metros, give or take. Using the small land areas of just the cities doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, the Albany-Schenectady-Troy metro has a median household income on par with the Raleigh metro(about $61,000 according to 2010-2014 census info) and it is a growing metro that is in the state's Tech Valley.

Actually, the Williamsville, Clarence and Orchard Park SD's in the Buffalo area have median household incomes of around $80,000. Fayetteville-Manlius in the eastern suburbs of Syracuse has a median household income of $91,000, which is the median household income of Cary NC according to 2010-2014 census info. Pittsford SD, the most affluent Upstate NY community and a Rochester suburb, has a median household income of about $108,000 according to that same census period. Albany area suburban districts like Niskayuna and Bethlehem are in the $90-100k range. There are others with median household incomes well above the national and state figure all over Upstate NY. This post from another thread touches on some of this: http://www.city-data.com/forum/44746449-post198.html

There are private companies in the region and if you look at many metros across the country, those industries you mentioned are the leading industries.

Also, the region doesn't have the foreclosure issues or to the same degree that many other areas have had in recent years. You may be interested in this information: https://www.nahb.org/~/media/Sites/N...116.ashx?la=en

https://www.nahb.org/en/research/hou...ity-index.aspx

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-28-2016 at 11:36 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Lubec, ME
908 posts, read 910,875 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I'm not fibbing...Yes, metro area median household income is around the national average for Upstate NY metros, give or take. Using the small land areas of just the cities doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, the Albany-Schenectady-Troy metro has a median household income on par with the Raleigh metro(about $61,000 according to 2010-2014 census info) and it is a growing metro that is in the state's Tech Valley.

Actually, the Williamsville, Clarence and Orchard Park SD's in the Buffalo area have median household incomes of around $80,000. Fayetteville-Manlius in the eastern suburbs of Syracuse has a median household income of $91,000, which is the median household income of Cary NC according to 2010-2014 census info. Pittsford SD, the most affluent Upstate NY community and a Rochester suburb, has a median household income of about $108,000 according to that same census period. Albany area suburban districts like Niskayuna and Bethlehem are in the $90-100k range. There are others with median household incomes well above the national and state figure all over Upstate NY. This post from another thread touches on some of this: http://www.city-data.com/forum/44746449-post198.html

There are private companies in the region and if you look at many metros across the country, those industries you mentioned are the leading industries.

Also, the region doesn't have the foreclosure issues or to the same degree that many other areas have had in recent years. You may be interested in this information: https://www.nahb.org/~/media/Sites/N...116.ashx?la=en

https://www.nahb.org/en/research/hou...ity-index.aspx
You drum on about one point but ignore high taxes, poor job prospects, drugs, and all the other problems. This narrow process is tiring for people like me (who have lived in WNY for 20+ years on and off) because you constantly pump upstate NY to people who aren't familiar with it.

OP, NYS is not where you want to be. You get all the negatives and very few positives. This isn't some isolated theme, it is a major theme across the board from Potsdam to Niagara Falls to Ripley to Elmira to Deposit. Much of PA isn't much better but I'd take Pittsburgh over just about anything in Upstate NY with exception of perhaps some nice place in the ADks or along a lake shore (where you pay more in price and tax).

The cities in Upstate NY have high income inequality (middle class suburbs and intensely poor inner cities), poor infrastructure, and 25-35% poverty rates. The poster I quoted attempts to water down these facts by taking metro stats. 80% of Buffalo metro isn't a desirable place to live, for example. As I said in another post on another board, I spent a night in downtown Troy last week and was solicited to buy cocaine within 10 minutes walking around downtown. That's terrible.

I could list out median household incomes for all the cities of upstate but it wouldn't prove any better a point the issues plaguing upstate. A good piece of food for thought, the median house income for the whole city of Buffalo in 2010 was $25000. It may be $27000 in 2015 if I recall proper. That means, its suburbs (i.e. three of them, since most of the Buffalo suburbs are poor by suburban standards) have median household incomes 2-3 times the city. That's not healthy.

Seattle and its suburbs, for example, have nearly uniform median household incomes. $70000 (2013) to $71000 (2014) respectively. That's the picture of health. Buffalo is not healthy at all.

Last edited by michael_atw; 07-28-2016 at 01:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Lubec, ME
908 posts, read 910,875 times
Reputation: 447
Additionally, people upstate aren't particularly respectful. My hometown is covered in cigarette butts. Nearly all cities in upstate will not be clean. Cities like Binghamton, Buffalo, Syracuse will have clean areas but the majority of it will be dumpy.

The big cities upstate are not very walkable (better than they used to be though), don't have good mass transit (pretty bad, actually), no major airports (Albany might have the "most major" airport upstate), and there will be nearly zero financial investment in a house upstate. The only investment in a property upstate (I'm talking about the whole thing) would be in a lakeside property on a finger lake, ADK lake, or one of the Great Lakes. The investment potential in cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse was 10 years ago and the other smaller cities have zero potential for investment. Most areas of upstate are dying, albeit slower than they were a couple decades ago.

The markets are buyers markets, when you buy a house up here, it could take months, years to sell it depending on where it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
3,144 posts, read 2,824,419 times
Reputation: 2858
NY is full of great little towns if you don't like cities. Olean is one of them. I was also going to mention Wellsville as family friendly but it might be too rural for the OP. I took a trip to Rochester this year and was expecting the apocalypse but came across a clean and newer city. We were impressed with the downtown.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-28-2016, 02:22 PM
 
56,501 posts, read 80,803,243 times
Reputation: 12480
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_atw View Post
You drum on about one point but ignore high taxes, poor job prospects, drugs, and all the other problems. This narrow process is tiring for people like me (who have lived in WNY for 20+ years on and off) because you constantly pump upstate NY to people who aren't familiar with it.

OP, NYS is not where you want to be. You get all the negatives and very few positives. This isn't some isolated theme, it is a major theme across the board from Potsdam to Niagara Falls to Ripley to Elmira to Deposit. Much of PA isn't much better but I'd take Pittsburgh over just about anything in Upstate NY with exception of perhaps some nice place in the ADks or along a lake shore (where you pay more in price and tax).

The cities in Upstate NY have high income inequality (middle class suburbs and intensely poor inner cities), poor infrastructure, and 25-35% poverty rates. The poster I quoted attempts to water down these facts by taking metro stats. 80% of Buffalo metro isn't a desirable place to live, for example. As I said in another post on another board, I spent a night in downtown Troy last week and was solicited to buy cocaine within 10 minutes walking around downtown. That's terrible.

I could list out median household incomes for all the cities of upstate but it wouldn't prove any better a point the issues plaguing upstate. A good piece of food for thought, the median house income for the whole city of Buffalo in 2010 was $25000. It may be $27000 in 2015 if I recall proper. That means, its suburbs (i.e. three of them, since most of the Buffalo suburbs are poor by suburban standards) have median household incomes 2-3 times the city. That's not healthy.

Seattle and its suburbs, for example, have nearly uniform median household incomes. $70000 (2013) to $71000 (2014) respectively. That's the picture of health. Buffalo is not healthy at all.
Most "older" cities have higher poverty rates due to not being able to annex suburban areas into the city limits and even then, there is a range of neighborhoods in terms of economics within them. You can find census block groups/census tracts(neighborhoods) in all of those cities with median household incomes well above the state figure, which is higher than the national figure. For instance, this Syracuse neighborhood is in a census block group with a median household income of around $107,000(Bradford Hills/Heights): https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sc...7!4d-76.109384


This one is in a census block group of $118,000(Sedgwick): https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sc...7!4d-76.109384


This one is in a census block group that is a little over $99,000: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0383...7i13312!8i6656

All of them are within Syracuse city limits and the previously mentioned Eastwood and Westcott neighborhoods aren't far from those neighborhoods.


This is in a census block group with a median household income over $86,000 in the city of Rochester: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1396...8i6656!6m1!1e1


an adjacent census block group that is a little bit over $80,000: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1368...8i6656!6m1!1e1


This Rochester neighborhood is in a census block group with a median household income just above $89,000: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1438...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Again, all are in Rochester city limits and in the previously mentioned SE Quadrant of the city. Oh, this is literally a few blocks away from the last street view(Park avenue neighborhood): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1481...8i6656!6m1!1e1


I think you meant to say median household income and for Buffalo, it is actually around $32,000, but also varies, as zip code 14222 has a median household income a little over $53,000, which is right around the national figure. Outside of Lackawanna, 3-4 districts in Cheektowaga just under the national median household income(lower middle class) and the T-NT districts(Tonawanda and North Tonawanda) also being lower middle class, the rest of the suburban and small town school districts are at least around the national median household figure and up. Lancaster(which has a walkable village), East aurora(again has a walkable village), Hamburg(again a walkable village), Frontier, Alden, Starpoint, Iroquois, Lewiston-Porter(has 2 small walkable villages) and Amherst Central all have median household incomes above the national and state(around $59,000) figures. Here is some home value info by NY county: https://www.tax.ny.gov/research/prop.../resmedian.htm


Seattle also have blue collar suburbs/cities in its metro with lower median household incomes than the city of Seattle(a little over $67,000 according to 2010-2014 census info) particularly to the south of that city.


Here are the international airports in Upstate NY and rates tend to be lowest for the bigger metros or according to metro size: Buffalo Niagara International Airport


GRIA - Information | Monroe County, NY


Syracuse Hancock International Airport - You can get there from SYRSyracuse Hancock International Airport


Home Page | ALB : Albany International Airport


It isn't uncommon to have Canadian fly out of these airports due to having lower rates than those in their Canadian area.


Taxes and drugs were already mentioned, as were walkable neighborhoods within the cities and Buffalo was taken out of the equation anyway.


If you don't mind small cities as was mentioned OP, you do have some options in the bigger metros as well.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-28-2016 at 03:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top