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Old 08-09-2016, 05:11 PM
 
470 posts, read 287,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Right. Pretty clearly this particular poster is not very familiar with northeast Texas.

There are more spectacular fall colors on the eastern seaboard, especially in the Appalachians and Smoky Mountains and northeast but northeast Texas does have some beautiful fall foliage - we just get it in late November. Or at Christmas - LOL.
Northeast Texas is way too warm for tree dormancy. The native deciduous trees, which are old relics from the Ice Age, will be replaced with evergreens, slowly but surely.
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Old 08-09-2016, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
Like I said, all deciduous trees in the South are either Ice Age relics, or are planted. The pecan trees would be Ice Age relics.



Ice Age relics because the deciduous trees were forced south when the North got covered in glaciers during that time period. Since then, the climate warmed up, and evergreens from Florida and tropical Mexico have slowly, but surely, started to replace deciduous trees in the South.

And the replacement has been quite fast; most trees in the South are evergreen, especially live oaks, magnolias, red bays, pines, etc.
Funny because pecans are native to Mexico and the Southwest and don't grow further north than Illinois. They require hot humid summers to produce nuts so they would not thrive in Vermont or Maine.

You obviously don't know Texas. Texas is the " The South" in the same vein as Oklahoma is "The South." Most of it is either in the plains or the desert. The eastern 1/4th is where you'll find the evergreen pine forests like in Louisiana, but where I live the foliage more resembles the typical foliage in Oklahoma or southern Kansas. The southern part by Mexico is a different story. Have you been to Texas in winter before? The northern half of the state is full of deciduous trees, many which are southwestern natives like PECANS and MESQUITES and others, typical trees like oaks, hickories, elms, some maples. All these trees lose their leaves in late fall and during winter most of the state has bare trees. The only trees that don't lose their leaves are pine trees (though there's deciduous pines too, I live across the street from some), live oaks and other subtropical evergreen species. The vast majority are deciduous. They lose their leaves in late November-early December and regrow them about mid or late March. By mid April almost 100% of our trees are fully leafed.

The term ice age relics implies these trees don't belong in this climate. You're acting like we're talking about aspens in Miami. North Texas' climate has more in common with Omaha than it does with Orlando.

Last edited by BadgerFilms; 08-09-2016 at 05:25 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-09-2016, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
Northeast Texas is way too warm for tree dormancy. The native deciduous trees, which are old relics from the Ice Age, will be replaced with evergreens, slowly but surely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xRoT8j_cls Yep. Way too warm for tree dormancy

All those leafless trees are just northern invaders that will eventually die cuz its sooo hot in northeast Texas in winter.
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Old 08-09-2016, 05:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
Funny because pecans are native to Mexico and the Southwest and don't grow further north than Illinois. They require hot humid summers to produce nuts so they would not thrive in Vermont or Maine.
Yes, pecans are a relic that originated around the Midwest, but forced south into the Southern US and Mexico during the Ice Age. When the Ice Age ended, the pecans adapted to the warmer climate, as per requirements for nut production. The pecans are continuing to adapt to the warmer climate, and, sooner or later, they will evolve to become more evergreen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
You obviously don't know Texas. Texas is the " The South" in the same vein as Oklahoma is "The South." Most of it is either in the plains or the desert. The eastern 1/4th is where you'll find the evergreen pine forests like in Louisiana, but where I live the foliage more resembles the typical foliage in Oklahoma or southern Kansas. The southern part by Mexico is a different story. Have you been to Texas in winter before? The northern half of the state is full of deciduous trees, many which are southwestern natives like PECANS and MESQUITES and others, typical trees like oaks, hickories, elms, some maples. All these trees lose their leaves in late fall and during winter most of the state has bare trees. The only trees that don't lose their leaves are pine trees (though there's deciduous pines too, I live across the street from some), live oaks and other subtropical evergreen species. The vast majority are deciduous. They lose their leaves in late November-early December and regrow them about mid or late March. By mid April almost 100% of our trees are fully leafed.
When I said "south" I was referring to the geographic position in general, never any of the cultural/environmental depictions. Thus, as for latitudinal purposes, Texas and Oklahoma are entirely southern.

All those deciduous trees you named are ice age relics, having been forced into northern Texas and Oklahoma due to the ice age up north, and then adapting to the warmer climate as the glaciers retreated. As they continue adapting, they will become more and more evergreen, and deciduous trees will go extinct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
The term ice age relics implies these trees don't belong in this climate. You're acting like we're talking about aspens in Miami. North Texas' climate has more in common with Omaha than it does with Orlando.
And as they are, they do not. North Texas, even with the cold it gets during winter, is still far too warm for a deciduous dormancy, with way to many winter warm spells. In due time, all the deciduous trees will be replaced with more appropriate trees for the climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xRoT8j_cls Yep. Way too warm for tree dormancy

All those leafless trees are just northern invaders that will eventually die cuz its sooo hot in northeast Texas in winter.
Such conditions don't last long enough, nor are potent enough, in that location, that would make it so that it is an advantage for trees to go completely dormant.
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Old 08-09-2016, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
Yes, pecans are a relic that originated around the Midwest, but forced south into the Southern US and Mexico during the Ice Age. When the Ice Age ended, the pecans adapted to the warmer climate, as per requirements for nut production. The pecans are continuing to adapt to the warmer climate, and, sooner or later, they will evolve to become more evergreen.



When I said "south" I was referring to the geographic position in general, never any of the cultural/environmental depictions. Thus, as for latitudinal purposes, Texas and Oklahoma are entirely southern.

All those deciduous trees you named are ice age relics, having been forced into northern Texas and Oklahoma due to the ice age up north, and then adapting to the warmer climate as the glaciers retreated. As they continue adapting, they will become more and more evergreen, and deciduous trees will go extinct.



And as they are, they do not. North Texas, even with the cold it gets during winter, is still far too warm for a deciduous dormancy, with way to many winter warm spells. In due time, all the deciduous trees will be replaced with more appropriate trees for the climate.



Such conditions don't last long enough, nor are potent enough, in that location, that would make it so that it is an advantage for trees to go completely dormant.
My point being that though Texas is southern in latitude, it does not mean it has the same vegetation as Louisiana or Alabama, the evergreen forests you speak of. It does, in the eastern part, but overall the vegetation is not as "evergreen" as you think. Even Alabama still has plenty of deciduous woods in the northern part.

Snow falls in northern and western Texas at least once or twice a year, ice even more so, and the average snowdepth is about 2 inches. Snow is not a "once every 5-10 years thing" here, it's more of a "once every year with the exception of an unseasonably warm winter." Winter of 2015 saw consistant snow cover from late February to early March. Nearly 2 full weeks of snow on the ground. Even when it melted, it snowed again a few days later. We have freezes and frosts consistently each winter as well. The first freeze is normally mid November and last freeze is late March. The average January low where I live is between 30-33 degrees. How is that not cold enough for winter dormancy?

If pecans are northern natives how come their northern range is limited to the Midwest? How come they don't grow in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan or in New England? The south has plenty of deciduous trees. Anywhere that has consistent freezes in winter will have deciduous trees (provided it's not the arctic or high alpine areas) and northern Texas DOES have those conditions. Trust me, it may not snow enough to shovel but it snows enough that you can expect it each year, and if not snow, freezing rain or sleet.
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
My point being that though Texas is southern in latitude, it does not mean it has the same vegetation as Louisiana or Alabama, the evergreen forests you speak of. It does, in the eastern part, but overall the vegetation is not as "evergreen" as you think. Even Alabama still has plenty of deciduous woods in the northern part.
Nonsense. The native vegetation of in much of Texas is indeed evergreen (or semi-evergreen), just more xeric in comparison to what seen in Louisiana or Alabama. For example, the Texas live oak is a xeric, more drought adapted form of the typical live oak species that grows all along the coastal South (west into the Texas Gulf):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_fusiformis

Deciduous trees in Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and other southern areas of the US are relics, and will be replaced by evergreens in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
Snow falls in northern and western Texas at least once or twice a year, ice even more so, and the average snowdepth is about 2 inches. Snow is not a "once every 5-10 years thing" here, it's more of a "once every year with the exception of an unseasonably warm winter." Winter of 2015 saw consistant snow cover from late February to early March. Nearly 2 full weeks of snow on the ground. Even when it melted, it snowed again a few days later. We have freezes and frosts consistently each winter as well. The first freeze is normally mid November and last freeze is late March. The average January low where I live is between 30-33 degrees. How is that not cold enough for winter dormancy?
Because the snow and winter precip events you describe are far to brief (on a climactic scale), and the winter lows are followed by warmer daytime highs; there is a huge difference between having average low temps of 30-33F, and having average high temps of those same values (as seen in Chicago). Although the low temps are cold, because the day time is warmer, there is no need for dormancy.

Allow me to introduce you to the Korean Peninsula, which has broadleaf, subtropical evergreen forests, even in areas that have the same average lows you posted. Here is one such city:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeosu#Climate

The ecoregion in question:
Eastern Asia: Southern tip of the Korean Peninsula | Ecoregions | WWF

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
If pecans are northern natives how come their northern range is limited to the Midwest? How come they don't grow in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan or in New England? The south has plenty of deciduous trees. Anywhere that has consistent freezes in winter will have deciduous trees (provided it's not the arctic or high alpine areas) and northern Texas DOES have those conditions. Trust me, it may not snow enough to shovel but it snows enough that you can expect it each year, and if not snow, freezing rain or sleet.
It is more about the persistence and longevity of extreme cold conditions rather than just freezing and coldness in and of itself. If a place consistently freezes, but temps are no lower than the upper 20s, and always rebound to higher afternoon temps, that is still warm enough for evergreen forests to exist. You should really look up areas in East Asia; they have broadleaved evergreen forests even in areas that average lows near freezing, because the highs still are warmer, and, thus, the area is not cold enough for dormancy.

Pecan trees evolved in the northern US (but not too far north), but forced south during the Ice Age. Other deciduous trees in the South may have evolved during the colder Ice Age conditions. Regardless, with the warmer climate, evergreens will still replace the deciduous trees.

This place is colder on average than Dallas during winter and is lined with palm trees.
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:21 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsboy View Post
The rest of the country DOES NOT think that. Fall foliage in the South is equally impressive.

GEORGIA:
Where is that in Georgia?
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:25 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,135 posts, read 21,881,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
Fall foliage in the South matching the Northeast is found only in the high elevations of the region, as well as the northern/inland tiers of the region. The rest of the South is too warm and tropical-like year-round to see any spectacular fall color of note. Deciduous trees on the Southern coastal plain are a relic from the Ice Age.
Guess you have never been to the North Carolina Zoo the first of November. Charlotte turns into the city of color the last of October.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...e+nc&FORM=IGRE

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...verlay&first=1

This is the neatest place. The leaves don't seem to be in full bloom but it is U. S. Highway 64 between Sapphire Valley and Cashiers. It has to be the right time of day and the right time of year.

Last edited by NCN; 08-09-2016 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:52 PM
 
470 posts, read 287,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Guess you have never been to the North Carolina Zoo the first of November. Charlotte turns into the city of color the last of October.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...e+nc&FORM=IGRE
Maybe you missed the part where I said:

Quote:
Fall foliage in the South matching the Northeast is found only in the high elevations of the region, as well as the northern/inland tiers of the region.
Charlotte is quite elevated, being on the Piedmont, is in the northerly tiers of the South. And even it is quite a bit too warm for deciduous trees; they will be replaced by evergreens, eventually.
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Old 08-09-2016, 07:58 PM
 
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This is fall color for many portions of the South:




Not my picture
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