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Old 08-10-2016, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
6,065 posts, read 3,393,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
My post had nothing to do with that. I was speaking about the climate zone.
I know, though apparently to some brilliant minds it does. Apparently highs in the 60s and lows in the 40s in New York during October will trigger leaf change, but those same numbers in November in Texas, well that's nothing more than "ice age relics" whatever that means.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:19 PM
 
6,127 posts, read 6,450,601 times
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OP, those are beautiful photos. I've always wanted to visit New England in the fall, but I would also enjoy seeing the Adirondacks.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:50 PM
 
470 posts, read 287,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
The Northern catalpa may very well be planted, or maybe this just happens to be the southern extension of its natural range. Trees don't follow state lines. Regardless, the tree fares well here and follows the same patterns as further up north. Flowers in the spring, yellow falling leaves in fall. The difference is that it happens weeks earlier/later than in Illinois for example.
That map I posted depicted the native range of the northern catalpa, and nowhere in Texas was in the range. End of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
I know you didn't say it was gonna have the same plants as Miami, however you're still saying it like it's LIKE Miami where trees don't go dormant. Guess what? You plant a northern species in Miami, it will stay green year round. The change of leaves in autumn is triggered more by temp than sunlight, otherwise how do you explain the mountains of Tennessee being covered in orange leaves in October where as the low lands of the same latitude, are still green? How do you explain on warm years the foliage changing later than cold years? How do you explain on a cold spring, the leaves growing back later? For example, March 2015 still had snow on the ground for the part of Texas I lived in for the first week, March 2016 had no snow, and neither did the winter as a whole. March 1st already had some flowering trees and buds. Oh, but these trees aren't affected by temperature right, which means every year on March 1st we'll see the same leaves growing back, regardless of snow or ice
Looks like someone is in need of a biology lesson:
Quote:
The process that starts the cascade of events that result in fall color is actually a growth process. In late summer or early autumn, the days begin to get shorter, and nights are longer. Like most plants, deciduous trees and shrubs are rather sensitive to length of the dark period each day. When nights reach a threshold value and are long enough, the cells near the juncture of the leaf and the stem divide rapidly, but they do not expand. This abscission layer is a corky layer of cells that slowly begins to block transport of materials such as carbohydrates from the leaf to the branch. It also blocks the flow of minerals from the roots into the leaves. Because the starting time of the whole process is dependent on night length, fall colors appear at about the same time each year in a given location, whether temperatures are cooler or warmer than normal.
The Science of Color in Autumn Leaves

So there it is; the process of losing leaves is not even triggered by temperature, but by day-light length. That means fall color can happen even in frostless areas like Central Florida, when the nights get long enough. Now, temperature can affect the intensity/vibrancy of color, but the color-changing process as a whole is simply related to day-length.

Deciduous trees lose their leaves as an adaptation for dry, cold, and dark conditions during winter. Winters in Denton, while variable, can hardly be described as cold and dark; many warm, sunny days in winter. Regardless of any brief temp swings, conditions are still overall too warm to warrant dormancy. No it isn't to Miami's levels (I don't know why you keep insisting that I said such a thing), but still too warm for dormancy. The decidious trees that exist in Denton are Ice Age relics, slowly to be replaced by evergreens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
"Replaced by evergreens in the future.." Sure. Maybe. Though by that time most of the east coast will be a sunken ruin, and giant spiders will rule the earth.

Never answered my question. Have you been to Denton? Ever? Have you been to north Texas? Those tree species you listed are a minority here, the vast majority are sticks in winter without any leaf.
Irrelevant to the point at hand.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,741,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
I know, though apparently to some brilliant minds it does. Apparently highs in the 60s and lows in the 40s in New York during October will trigger leaf change, but those same numbers in November in Texas, well that's nothing more than "ice age relics" whatever that means.
Ah.

Well I also know for a fact that some areas of southern Texas do have pretty great fall colors. Unfortunately, most of Louisiana did not; lots of brown and dead.

So I agree with you there, TX and some other parts of the deep south (northern Alabama and Georgia) have great Autumn color.

I will say though, that it's not quite as vivid as the far north can be. However, that is only due to tree breeds and density thereof, but also the color of the surrounding atmosphere; which does actually change as you approach or become distant from the equator and/or time spent in direct sunlight. It sounds silly but there are lighting tints in nature outside of time of day.

By no means is it not beautiful though!
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:19 PM
 
470 posts, read 287,774 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
I know, though apparently to some brilliant minds it does. Apparently highs in the 60s and lows in the 40s in New York during October will trigger leaf change, but those same numbers in November in Texas, well that's nothing more than "ice age relics" whatever that means.
Your point is rendered irrelevant, given that fall color isn't even triggered by temperature (but rather by daytime decreasing to a threshold amount).
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
6,065 posts, read 3,393,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
Your point is rendered irrelevant, given that fall color isn't even triggered by temperature (but rather by daytime decreasing to a threshold amount).

Except it's more complex than you think. It's daylight, temperature, humidity, precipitation...

That's why the same tree won't yield colour at the same time in southern California as it does in Georgia.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
6,065 posts, read 3,393,954 times
Reputation: 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
That map I posted depicted the native range of the northern catalpa, and nowhere in Texas was in the range. End of story.



Looks like someone is in need of a biology lesson:

The Science of Color in Autumn Leaves

So there it is; the process of losing leaves is not even triggered by temperature, but by day-light length. That means fall color can happen even in frostless areas like Central Florida, when the nights get long enough. Now, temperature can affect the intensity/vibrancy of color, but the color-changing process as a whole is simply related to day-length.

Deciduous trees lose their leaves as an adaptation for dry, cold, and dark conditions during winter. Winters in Denton, while variable, can hardly be described as cold and dark; many warm, sunny days in winter. Regardless of any brief temp swings, conditions are still overall too warm to warrant dormancy. No it isn't to Miami's levels (I don't know why you keep insisting that I said such a thing), but still too warm for dormancy. The decidious trees that exist in Denton are Ice Age relics, slowly to be replaced by evergreens.



Irrelevant to the point at hand.
And yet fall colour doesn't happen in central Florida. You have to go almost to Georgia to see any colour. It is not about relevance. You keep talking so much about the trees here and I highly doubt you been here cuz you're way off base.

Btw our average winter lows are slightly colder than London's. Are you gonna go on about how London is full of "ice age relics" too? Our record low is colder than London's too, it's actually gotten below zero here and not just windchill.

To understand how cold Texas can get, consider that a few winters ago my SO was in marching band practice while the windchill was -10 and the actual temperature was 10 degrees. Anywhere than can get that cold without it being a once in a century thing, is the kind of place that naturally sustains deciduous trees and is definitely cold enough for dormancy. You don't need avg lows in the 20s for that, dude. The flora and climate of this planet is far too complex it does not work in a black and white scale. The trees of Texas know they live where its warm, but they also know they live where from fall to spring, mother nature is PMSing and they go into dormancy because they know that even when it's 70 one day, it can be 20 the next.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
6,065 posts, read 3,393,954 times
Reputation: 7710
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Ah.

Well I also know for a fact that some areas of southern Texas do have pretty great fall colors. Unfortunately, most of Louisiana did not; lots of brown and dead.

So I agree with you there, TX and some other parts of the deep south (northern Alabama and Georgia) have great Autumn color.

I will say though, that it's not quite as vivid as the far north can be. However, that is only due to tree breeds and density thereof, but also the color of the surrounding atmosphere; which does actually change as you approach or become distant from the equator and/or time spent in direct sunlight. It sounds silly but there are lighting tints in nature outside of time of day.

By no means is it not beautiful though!

Yea our colours aren't as vibrant but they're still noticeable. And we still have some species that are showy. Back in October I was riding my bike and I saw this one tree, not sure the species, it was a bright red like a feather brush. All though most you will see will be a dull orange.

Me and a coworker were chatting about how we're both looking forward to fall and she mentioned some back roads which have some beautiful colours, not just reds and oranges but purple too. I'll make it a goal to go out there this fall and catch some pictures.
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:59 AM
 
Location: Lil Rhodey
681 posts, read 465,487 times
Reputation: 943
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIRAL View Post
That map I posted depicted the native range of the northern catalpa, and nowhere in Texas was in the range. End of story.



Looks like someone is in need of a biology lesson:

The Science of Color in Autumn Leaves

So there it is; the process of losing leaves is not even triggered by temperature, but by day-light length. That means fall color can happen even in frostless areas like Central Florida, when the nights get long enough. Now, temperature can affect the intensity/vibrancy of color, but the color-changing process as a whole is simply related to day-length.

Deciduous trees lose their leaves as an adaptation for dry, cold, and dark conditions during winter. Winters in Denton, while variable, can hardly be described as cold and dark; many warm, sunny days in winter. Regardless of any brief temp swings, conditions are still overall too warm to warrant dormancy. No it isn't to Miami's levels (I don't know why you keep insisting that I said such a thing), but still too warm for dormancy. The decidious trees that exist in Denton are Ice Age relics, slowly to be replaced by evergreens.



Irrelevant to the point at hand.
IT is true that it is the length of day triggers the color change, but its the cold that triggers the brilliant reds. The sugar maples need temps below freezing to get those brilliant red and purple colors.
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:29 AM
 
470 posts, read 287,774 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvpsharky View Post
IT is true that it is the length of day triggers the color change, but its the cold that triggers the brilliant reds. The sugar maples need temps below freezing to get those brilliant red and purple colors.
Yes, I said that temps can affect vibrancy/intensity of color.
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