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Old 09-13-2016, 09:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Cal and Stanford, while formidable, don't match Boston or Chicago's top two.
Seriously? Okay, the Harvard-MIT one-two punch may be tough to beat (though I'd argue Stanford-Berkeley comes close), but I really hope you're not simply basing this on USNWR rankings. Anyone who knows anything about educational quality and reputation knows that those rankings aren't the end-all be-all. All the big public universities suffer rankings wise because of the "resource rank" factors. Smaller (though still substantial) endowments spread among more students and faculty take those world-renowned, major public research universities down a notch in the rankings. Also, "selectivity" is a factor, and since these universities have twice or three times (or even four and five times) as many undergraduates as some of the private schools, they get dropped down for that too - even though they are plenty selective (as a percentage of applicants accepted).

Stanford-Berkeley would easily be equivalent to Chicago-Northwestern, and I went to Northwestern so my rooting interest isn't in the Bay Area.

Also, if you are simply going by published rankings, there's more than USNWR.

ARWU (global rankings) has Harvard at 1, Stanford at 2, Berkeley at 3, MIT at 5, Chicago at 10, and Northwestern at 26.

Times Higher Education (global rankings) has Stanford at 2, MIT at 5, Harvard at 6, Chicago at 10, Berkeley at 13, Northwestern at 25.

I'm not saying these rankings are "right" or better, but USNWR isn't "right" or better either.
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:44 PM
 
51 posts, read 53,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goillini8 View Post
Seriously? Okay, the Harvard-MIT one-two punch may be tough to beat (though I'd argue Stanford-Berkeley comes close), but I really hope you're not simply basing this on USNWR rankings. Anyone who knows anything about educational quality and reputation knows that those rankings aren't the end-all be-all. All the big public universities suffer rankings wise because of the "resource rank" factors. Smaller (though still substantial) endowments spread among more students and faculty take those world-renowned, major public research universities down a notch in the rankings. Also, "selectivity" is a factor, and since these universities have twice or three times (or even four and five times) as many undergraduates as some of the private schools, they get dropped down for that too - even though they are plenty selective (as a percentage of applicants accepted).

Stanford-Berkeley would easily be equivalent to Chicago-Northwestern, and I went to Northwestern so my rooting interest isn't in the Bay Area.

Also, if you are simply going by published rankings, there's more than USNWR.

ARWU (global rankings) has Harvard at 1, Stanford at 2, Berkeley at 3, MIT at 5, Chicago at 10, and Northwestern at 26.

Times Higher Education (global rankings) has Stanford at 2, MIT at 5, Harvard at 6, Chicago at 10, Berkeley at 13, Northwestern at 25.

I'm not saying these rankings are "right" or better, but USNWR isn't "right" or better either.

Yes, the above point of the fallacy of looking only at USNWR college rankings is a good one, which is lost on a lot of people who don't think much about what makes a great academic institution. The college rankings are for undergraduate admission and are good for a particular purpose but definitely do not reflect the overall quality or influence of a university. In fact even in what they do assess, their inadequacies are well documented (perhaps most importantly the bias towards private universities based on some of the metrics). In most "global" or "overall" assessments the qualilty of a university is measured mostly by research output & quality and academic reputation. I know that's not necessarily the best thing to look at either, but should difinitely be given a lot of weight in such discussions about university quality in different regions.

These days there seem to be a few of these rankings around from various parts of the world. As was mentioned, two of the more well regarded ones are from the Times Higher Education Supplement World University Rankings in the UK and the Academic Ranking of World Universities from Shanghai. In fact US News themselves now publish Best Global University Rankings based on the broader metrics I mentioned above.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...cols/rank_only

ARWU World University Rankings 2016 | Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016 | Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2016

Top World University Rankings | US News Best Global Universities

I had looked at these 3 in detail a few weeks ago in a different context and it becomes apparent quite quickly that the same universities more or less dominate the rankings in all 3 all the way to #50, even though they all use slightly different metrics. By assigning a score of 50 to #1 and 1 to #50 I was able to come up with a composite academic score for each MSA based on the average of the 3 rankings. I also threw in the average number of universities from each MSA that shows up in the 3 top-50 rankings The results are here:

AVERAGE ACROSS 3 RANKINGS:
MSA #_of_top_50_univs TotalScore
NY 5.7 173
LA 4 121.3
Boston 3.7 117.7
Chicago 2 75.7
SF 2 68.7
Durham-Chapel Hill 2 60.3
San Jose 1 48.3
Baltimore 1 40.7
Philadelphia 1 38
Seattle 1 37.3
Pittsburgh 2 35.3
San Diego 1 35
St. Louis 1 26.3
Minneapolis 1 25
Atlanta 1.7 22.3
DC 1.3 19.7
Houston 1.3 10
DFW 0.3 7.3
Denver 0 0
Detroit 0 0
Miami 0 0
Phoenix 0 0
Riverside-SanBernardino 0 0
Tampa 0 0
Other 17.3 313


It turns out that there are 3 clear tiers at the top:
Tier 1: NY
Tier 2: LA and Boston
Tier 3: Chicago, SF and Durham-Chapel Hill (SF would clearly be Tier2 if combined with the San Jose MSA, Baltimore+DC would join Tier3 if those two MSAs are combined)

NY and LA are at the top because they include so many good universities due to their size. As expected, Boston clearly punches above its weight and so does Durham-Chapel Hill. I will put up the details of the analysis in a later post.
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:47 PM
 
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The only good school in saint Louis that has some prestige to it is Wash U. Every one of the others the OP listed are just local colleges/universities of average quality. Stop gassin up St. Louis. It aint that great
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Old 09-14-2016, 07:39 PM
 
436 posts, read 330,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OptimusPrime69 View Post
The only good school in saint Louis that has some prestige to it is Wash U. Every one of the others the OP listed are just local colleges/universities of average quality. Stop gassin up St. Louis. It aint that great
Agreed. It's nonsense. The OP compared the 108th ranked Midwest regional to Harvard.
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Old 09-14-2016, 08:36 PM
 
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I don't give much stock to any of the rankings, but University of Chicago is one of the finest universities in the world, as evidenced by the number of Nobel Laureates it has produced. If it were on a coast or had D1 sports, it would be held in higher esteem by the general public.
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Old 09-14-2016, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
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Probably Boston in terms of prestigious universities in a super prosperous area.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:08 PM
 
597 posts, read 400,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I don't give much stock to any of the rankings, but University of Chicago is one of the finest universities in the world, as evidenced by the number of Nobel Laureates it has produced. If it were on a coast or had D1 sports, it would be held in higher esteem by the general public.
Thing about Chicago is that it's the "actor's actor" (to borrow a phrase from entertainment). No, the general public doesn't know of it's quality and reputation. The general public generally knows Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT (I'd argue the general public doesn't really know NYU or Columbia, or Penn (which since it;s named University of Pennsylvania, most probably think it's a flagship state public school)). Aside from those schools, the general public knows excellent public universities with high profile sports (Michigan, Wisconsin, UCLA, Berkeley, Virginia, Texas for example), and make not mistake those are really great schools.

But, everyone within the world of academia and anyone who knows anything about academia - i.e., the "insiders" knows what a powerhouse Chicago is. There are a handful of insider schools like that.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:14 PM
 
51 posts, read 53,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I don't give much stock to any of the rankings, but University of Chicago is one of the finest universities in the world, as evidenced by the number of Nobel Laureates it has produced. If it were on a coast or had D1 sports, it would be held in higher esteem by the general public.
You do realize that factors like the number of Nobel Laureates is precisely the things that these rankings are looking at (faculty awards, citation rates, national academy memberships etc). And you're very right: based on these factors U Chicago is absolutely top-notch.

Anyway below are the details of the rankings if anyone's interested. The top 50 US universities in each ranking are assigned scores from 50 to 1 and grouped by MSA. I only used the top 20 MSAs by 2015 population estimates for simplification and assigned "Other" to the rest (interestingly the "other" bucket is by far the largest one which tells you that great universities are everywhere). 4 additional smaller MSAs were also included in the analysis: San Jose and Baltimore because the question always comes up with looking at the SF and DC CSAs and not MSAs. I also included Durham-Chapel Hill and Pittsburgh because they have multiple universities in all the rankings and therefore punch above their weight.

Anyway I mentioned the top 3 tiers before, which directly come from the average scores from the 3 rankings. On the flip side there are 6 metros in the top 20 that don't figure in the rankings at all:

US NEWS:
University MSA Score
Harvard University Boston 50
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Boston 49
University of California, Berkeley SF 48
Stanford University San Jose 47
California Institute of Technology LA 46
University of California, Los Angeles LA 45
Columbia University NY 44
University of Chicago Chicago 43
University of Washington Seattle 42
Johns Hopkins University Baltimore 41
Princeton University NY 40
University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia 39
Yale University NY 38
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Other 37
University of California, San Diego San Diego 36
Duke University Durham-Chapel Hill 35
Cornell University Other 34
University of California, San Francisco SF 33
University of California, Santa Barbara Other 32
Northwestern University Chicago 31
University of Wisconsin, Madison Other 30
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Durham-Chapel Hill 29
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Minneapolis 28
University of Texas, Austin Other 27
Boston University Boston 26
New York University NY 25
Ohio State University Other 24
Washington University in St. Louis St. Louis 23
University of California, Davis Other 22
University of Maryland, College Park DC 21
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign Other 20
University of Southern California LA 19
University of Colorado, Boulder Other 18
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh 17
University of California, Santa Cruz Other 16
University of Florida Other 15
Pennsylvania State University Other 14
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey NY 13
University of California, Irvine LA 12
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta 11
University of Arizona Other 10
Emory University Atlanta 9
Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh 8
Purdue University Other 7
Vanderbilt University Other 6
Michigan State University Other 5
Rice University Houston 4
Rockefeller University NY 3
Texas A&M University, College Station Other 2
Tufts University Boston 1

TIMES HIGHER EDUCATION:
University MSA Score
California Institute of Technology LA 50
Stanford University San Jose 49
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Boston 48
Harvard University Boston 47
Princeton University NY 46
University of Chicago Chicago 45
Johns Hopkins University Baltimore 44
Yale University NY 43
University of California, Berkeley SF 42
Columbia University NY 41
University of California, Los Angeles LA 40
University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia 39
Cornell University Other 38
Duke University Durham-Chapel Hill 37
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Other 36
Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh 35
Northwestern University Chicago 34
New York University NY 33
University of Washington Seattle 32
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign Other 31
University of California, San Diego San Diego 30
University of California, Santa Barbara Other 29
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta 28
University of California, Davis Other 27
University of Texas, Austin Other 26
University of Wisconsin, Madison Other 25
Brown University Other 24
Washington University in St. Louis St. Louis 23
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Durham-Chapel Hill 22
Boston University Boston 21
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Minneapolis 20
University of Southern California LA 19
Pennsylvania State University Other 18
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh 17
Vanderbilt University Other 16
Emory University Atlanta 15
Ohio State University Other 14
Georgetown University DC 13
Michigan State University Other 12
Rice University Houston 11
Dartmouth College Other 10
University of California, Irvine LA 9
University of Notre Dame Other 8
Purdue University Other 7
University of Maryland, College Park DC 6
University of Florida Other 5
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey NY 4
University of Colorado, Boulder Other 3
Tufts University Boston 2
Case Western Reserve University Other 1


ARWU:
University MSA Score
Harvard University Boston 50
Stanford University San Jose 49
University of California, Berkeley SF 48
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Boston 47
Princeton University NY 46
California Institute of Technology LA 45
Columbia University NY 44
University of Chicago Chicago 43
Yale University NY 42
University of California, Los Angeles LA 41
Cornell University Other 40
University of California, San Diego San Diego 39
University of Washington Seattle 38
Johns Hopkins University Baltimore 37
University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia 36
University of California, San Francisco SF 35
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Other 34
Washington University in St. Louis St. Louis 33
Duke University Durham-Chapel Hill 32
Northwestern University Chicago 31
University of Wisconsin, Madison Other 30
New York University NY 29
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign Other 28
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Minneapolis 27
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Durham-Chapel Hill 26
Rockefeller University NY 25
University of Colorado, Boulder Other 24
University of California, Santa Barbara Other 23
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas DFW 22
University of Texas, Austin Other 21
University of Southern California LA 20
University of Maryland, College Park DC 19
University of California, Irvine LA 18
Vanderbilt University Other 17
Purdue University Other 16
Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh 15
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh 14
Rice University Houston 13
Boston University Boston 12
University of California, Davis Other 11
Pennsylvania State University Other 10
Ohio State University Other 9
University of California, Santa Cruz Other 8
Mayo Medical School Other 7
Brown University Other 6
University of Florida Other 5
Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta 4
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey NY 3
University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center Houston 2
University of Utah Other 1


AVERAGE ACROSS 3 RANKINGS
MSA #_of_top_50_univs TotalScore
NY 5.7 173
LA 4 121.3
Boston 3.7 117.7
Chicago 2 75.7
SF 2 68.7
Durham-Chapel Hill 2 60.3
San Jose 1 48.3
Baltimore 1 40.7
Philadelphia 1 38
Seattle 1 37.3
Pittsburgh 2 35.3
San Diego 1 35
St. Louis 1 26.3
Minneapolis 1 25
Atlanta 1.7 22.3
DC 1.3 19.7
Houston 1.3 10
DFW 0.3 7.3
Denver 0 0
Detroit 0 0
Miami 0 0
Phoenix 0 0
Riverside-SanBernardino 0 0
Tampa 0 0
Other 17.3 313
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Old 09-15-2016, 12:25 AM
 
Location: South Austin, 78745
2,984 posts, read 2,139,021 times
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You can't forget Austin. The University of Texas, St. Edwards, Concordia, Austin Community College, Huston-Tillotson all inside Austin City Limits. In the metro area, Southwestern University in Georgetown and Texas State University in San Marcos. There are well over 100,000 college students in the Austin Metro area.
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Old 09-15-2016, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,853 posts, read 6,526,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goillini8 View Post
Thing about Chicago is that it's the "actor's actor" (to borrow a phrase from entertainment). No, the general public doesn't know of it's quality and reputation. The general public generally knows Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT (I'd argue the general public doesn't really know NYU or Columbia, or Penn (which since it;s named University of Pennsylvania, most probably think it's a flagship state public school)). Aside from those schools, the general public knows excellent public universities with high profile sports (Michigan, Wisconsin, UCLA, Berkeley, Virginia, Texas for example), and make not mistake those are really great schools.

But, everyone within the world of academia and anyone who knows anything about academia - i.e., the "insiders" knows what a powerhouse Chicago is. There are a handful of insider schools like that.
I'll place some of the blame on Robert Hutchins, president of the U of C in the late 1930's. Hutchins was the one who took Chicago out of the Big Ten and ended its participation in college football. Sure, it is insane that collegiate athletics become so important for a university's profile, but sadly, this is the case. Chicago's visibility was greatly altered by it not participating in big time athletics.
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