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View Poll Results: Most Northern state?
Maine 21 14.09%
Vermont 8 5.37%
New Hampshire 0 0%
Massachusetts 37 24.83%
Rhode Island 0 0%
Connecticut 4 2.68%
New York 29 19.46%
Michigan 3 2.01%
Wisconsin 2 1.34%
Minnesota 41 27.52%
North Dakota 3 2.01%
South Dakota 0 0%
Nebraska 1 0.67%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-05-2018, 06:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Especially considering how popular Italian food has gotten elsewhere too. In Baton Rouge there's a ton of Italian restaurants.
And New Orleans has historically had a strong Italian presence. So did Birmingham. And Baltimore.

None of these places were ever quintessentially Northern.

I mean don't get me wrong. Italians have a presence mostly confined to the North. But there are multiple factors that go into this not just a few ethnic groups.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities (StP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Ok so Midwest accents are German influenced and also places like Cleveland, Chicago are slow paced and genteel.

Good trolling effort.

Brb going to fast paced Upstate New York
Brb going to the huge metropolis of Vermont
Brb going to speak in my German influenced Chicago/Minnesota/Cincinnati/Detroit/St. Louis accent
Brb going to travel hundreds of miles to Pittsburgh to get Italian and Polish food that isn't available here in the Great Lakes
Brb going to hit up numerous Southern Baptist churches full of Bible thumping Evangelicals
Brb going to drive 20 minutes to travel 20 miles
Brb going to misinterpret passive aggression as Southern hospitality
Another thing, while most of Minnesota is German/Scandinavian influenced, you'll find a very heavy Irish presence in St. Paul (was this one of those weird "Northern" parameters that these people imposed on us?).

Also, these people do realize that Germans and Scandinavians are Northern cultures, while Italians are a Southern culture, right?
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,100 posts, read 4,729,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
And New Orleans has historically had a strong Italian presence. So did Birmingham. And Baltimore.

None of these places were ever quintessentially Northern.

I mean don't get me wrong. Italians have a presence mostly confined to the North. But there are multiple factors that go into this not just a few ethnic groups.
I am in agreement with you. Italians are not a good gauge of "northern". Particularly considering how late to the American game they were compared to the English, French and Spanish; so forth.

The Italian presence in New Orleans is often overlooked. That is why the true NOLA accent is similar to what you'd find in parts of NYC. Similar ethnic origin.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Addams View Post
Another thing, while most of Minnesota is German/Scandinavian influenced, you'll find a very heavy Irish presence in St. Paul (was this one of those weird "Northern" parameters that these people imposed on us?).

Also, these people do realize that Germans and Scandinavians are Northern cultures, while Italians are a Southern culture, right?
I think they mean Northern US as opposed to latitude. Meaning that in the US, groups like the British Isles as a whole are more "Southern", Germanics are "Midwestern", and Mediterraneans/Eastern Europeans are "Northeastern".

But yes people seem to honestly ignore the heavy Irish presence of the A LOT of the Midwest. The Great Lakes is historically very Irish but I guess it only counts when it's in Boston. Never mind the Irish were historically the most prominent political ethnic group in the history of Chicago and even influenced the Northern Cities Vowel Shift (matter of fact the only non English origin to Midwest accents is Irish). There isn't even any Germanic linguistic influence in any part of the Midwest. The closest people can get to a Germanic linguistic influence in the Midwest is the use of a few Norwegian terms in Minnesota and the use of "please?" as opposed to "say what?" in Cincinnati. That is literally it. People act like we speak some weird dialect lol. The Midwest is characterized as the most American sounding region. People even stereotype the Minnesota accent as being very Norwegian sounding but I challenge you to find me a Norwegian who sounds Minnesotan. You really can't.

As for the Great Lakes which don't speak in either the Midland or North Central dialects, we have no Germanic influence in our dialect either. Most Midwest accents (just like the rhotic accents of the Mid-Atlantic) have standard American as the base of the accent with a few regional quirks. This even applies to New England except for Coastal New England who adopted weird British contrived pronunciations AFTER the Revolution.

How are you gonna call yourself more of one distinctly American culture when your port cities deliberately took on contrived British ways of speaking to sound more high class? How Northern or Yankee even is that? Bostonians didn't talk with a weird R-dropping dialect until after the country was founded. If anything that makes their Yankee card less valid. Brb gonna claim to be a proud Yankee but use British ways of speaking. Not exactly "Northern" but they want to criticize the Midwest for having Germanics who long assimilated into mainstream American culture while uppity Bostonians decided to literally fake a less American (thus less Northern) accent to seem more high class. I am also looking at you, New York.

So in the Midwest we speak more original to the first settlers, too. If anything Eastern New England got further from the North by doing the same contrived boujee thing the South did, and that's to pretend to be more British influenced. Oh wait, New England has something in common with the South! Don't even get me started on how some Downeast Maine accents sound like they could pass in Maryland or the Outer Banks. But hey, New England has nothing in common with the South. I wonder what these people would think to see how popular Vineyard Vines is at the uber Southern Kentucky derby. But these people are bunch of backwater rubes, right?

If anything, Pennsylvania would be more Northern on that fact. Least they never decided to speak unAmerican.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:55 PM
 
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Cookie Skoon,

Everything you say is true but upon researching, the similarities between NOLA and NYC accents had more to do with trade as opposed to one singular ethnic group. This is also because the traditional NYC accent that Italians use was formed long before Italians even arrived to the US. Most US accents have British Isles influence (including Ireland) and little else. Italian linguistics are not really a part of any US accent.
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:14 PM
 
9,383 posts, read 9,529,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I think they mean Northern US as opposed to latitude. Meaning that in the US, groups like the British Isles as a whole are more "Southern", Germanics are "Midwestern", and Mediterraneans/Eastern Europeans are "Northeastern".

But yes people seem to honestly ignore the heavy Irish presence of the A LOT of the Midwest. The Great Lakes is historically very Irish but I guess it only counts when it's in Boston. Never mind the Irish were historically the most prominent political ethnic group in the history of Chicago and even influenced the Northern Cities Vowel Shift (matter of fact the only non English origin to Midwest accents is Irish). There isn't even any Germanic linguistic influence in any part of the Midwest. The closest people can get to a Germanic linguistic influence in the Midwest is the use of a few Norwegian terms in Minnesota and the use of "please?" as opposed to "say what?" in Cincinnati. That is literally it. People act like we speak some weird dialect lol. The Midwest is characterized as the most American sounding region. People even stereotype the Minnesota accent as being very Norwegian sounding but I challenge you to find me a Norwegian who sounds Minnesotan. You really can't.

As for the Great Lakes which don't speak in either the Midland or North Central dialects, we have no Germanic influence in our dialect either. Most Midwest accents (just like the rhotic accents of the Mid-Atlantic) have standard American as the base of the accent with a few regional quirks. This even applies to New England except for Coastal New England who adopted weird British contrived pronunciations AFTER the Revolution.

at you,How are you gonna call yourself more of one distinctly American culture when your port cities deliberately took on contrived British ways of speaking to sound more high class? How Northern or Yankee even is that? Bostonians didn't talk with a weird R-dropping dialect until after the country was founded. If anything that makes their Yankee card less valid. Brb gonna claim to be a proud Yankee but use British ways of speaking. Not exactly "Northern" but they want to criticize the Midwest for having Germanics who long assimilated into mainstream American culture while uppity Bostonians decided to literally fake a less American (thus less Northern) accent to seem more high class. I am also looking New York.

So in the Midwest we speak more original to the first settlers, too. If anything Eastern New England got further from the North by doing the same contrived boujee thing the South did, and that's to pretend to be more British influenced. Oh wait, New England has something in common with the South! Don't even get me started on how some Downeast Maine accents sound like they could pass in Maryland or the Outer Banks. But hey, New England has nothing in common with the South. I wonder what these people would think to see how popular Vineyard Vines is at the uber Southern Kentucky derby. But these people are bunch of backwater rubes, right?

If anything, Pennsylvania would be more Northern on that fact. Least they never decided to speak unAmerican.
That's a myth
https://people.howstuffworks.com/ori...an-accents.htm

It was the poor people who moved to the Colonies that spoke like that and showed up in Boston before the upper classes of England
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Cookie Skoon,

Everything you say is true but upon researching, the similarities between NOLA and NYC accents had more to do with trade as opposed to one singular ethnic group. This is also because the traditional NYC accent that Italians use was formed long before Italians even arrived to the US. Most US accents have British Isles influence (including Ireland) and little else. Italian linguistics are not really a part of any US accent.
Really? Well I stand corrected.

Mind if I ask for your source on that? I'd be interested to look into it deeper, myself.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
That's a myth
https://people.howstuffworks.com/ori...an-accents.htm

It was the poor people who moved to the Colonies that spoke like that and showed up in Boston before the upper classes of England
Is that is true then I will retract my statement about non rhotic accents.

Everything else I said I still stand by though. Also your link says that Upper Midwest English got its O pronunciation from German tongues but there is no proof of that. Such pronunciations are not limited to the Upper Midwest. Furthermore this pronunciation already existed in English anyway and considering the rest of the Upper Midwest phonology (it also had a lot of the same pronunciation rules of New England), there is reason to believe it had a much earlier origin through British and Irish settlers that. Scandinavians. The fact that such pronunciation isn't limited to only Scandinavian sections of the Upper Midwest is telling. Conservative and backed long O sounds have existed in English for a long time and are also part of Northern English, Scottish, and Irish, the latter which did take their English to the Northern US.

Fact is there is scant evidence of any Midwest dialect being very German influenced. English speaking patterns were well established before immigrants arrived to the Midwest. These populations would shave their pronunciation within a generation. Like Poles in Chicago. Their parents may speak with Polish accents but their kids sound like Dennis Farina. And the Chicago accent isn't Polish derived at all anyway. Same way Irish in Boston have Boston accents and not Irish accents. The dominant accent in Boston is English derived and so are the majority if not all accents that are also English except for maybe NCVS which is American in origin and has slight Irish influence (the short U and short O pronunciation for one).

However it is fair to say that if you're in the South, whether you sound Minnesotan, Bostonian, or New Yorker you sound Yankee to them. They don't really differentiate between regions. To their ears it all sounds Yankee. I know because in the South my accent was classified anywhere from NYC to Canada to Minnesota to Wisconsin to New England. People really cannot tell Northerners apart unless they are Northern. And to be honest New Englanders think all Midwest people sound Minnesotan. I guess that is better than sounding Southern though which we supposedly are like.

I seriously find it really odd that you think things like being conservative are not Northern. You realize the modern progressive movement was born in Wisconsin, right? New England isn't the bastion of bright liberalism that people like to claim of it. It isn't THAT long ago that Blacks were in physical danger in Boston. You're trying to act like the utopian diversity is something that New England has been a bastion of forever and trying to make the Midwest out to be a bunch of hick rubes and New England a bunch of Harvard Educated forward thinkers. The Upper Midwest has history on its side in terms of leading progressive movements.

Politically the Upper Midwest is NOT that far from New England. Both places are home to rural White liberals and in fact are among some of the few places on the country where this is a possibility. Just how is liberalism even more Northern anyway? The ethnic groups that you guys keep yipping about (Italians, Irish) historically don't have super liberal cultures anyway. However the Scandinavians who settled the Upper Midwest do. So they alone would be more aligned with the North than many of the White ethnics of New England anyway.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:09 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,839,346 times
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Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Really? Well I stand corrected.

Mind if I ask for your source on that? I'd be interested to look into it deeper, myself.
Don't want to ignore your post. I don't have a source at the moment as this is more through years of research. Really there aren't many sources on Italian influence in many US accents. Usually they are weak and not very convincing and lack evidence and also any sort of link to Italian dialects at all.

For example neither the NYC accent nor NOLA accent utilize any Italian vowels. Loanwords perhaps but not any sort of phonology. All aspects of each accent can be trace back to an English source and some even current.

NOLA for example utilizes a more fronted O of Southern O where New York utilizes one of Eastern England. Their split short A system can likewise be traced to some Southeastern English sources. There just isn't much of an Italian carryover on either side be it NOLA nor NYC.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,286 posts, read 3,501,481 times
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Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Don't want to ignore your post. I don't have a source at the moment as this is more through years of research. Really there aren't many sources on Italian influence in many US accents. Usually they are weak and not very convincing and lack evidence and also any sort of link to Italian dialects at all.

For example neither the NYC accent nor NOLA accent utilize any Italian vowels. Loanwords perhaps but not any sort of phonology. All aspects of each accent can be trace back to an English source and some even current.

NOLA for example utilizes a more fronted O of Southern O where New York utilizes one of Eastern England. Their split short A system can likewise be traced to some Southeastern English sources. There just isn't much of an Italian carryover on either side be it NOLA nor NYC.
These posts are fascinating, EddieOlSkool! Are you are professional Linguist, or is this a hobby of yours?

At any rate, thank you for breaking this down for everyone.
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