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View Poll Results: Most Northern state?
Maine 21 14.09%
Vermont 8 5.37%
New Hampshire 0 0%
Massachusetts 37 24.83%
Rhode Island 0 0%
Connecticut 4 2.68%
New York 29 19.46%
Michigan 3 2.01%
Wisconsin 2 1.34%
Minnesota 41 27.52%
North Dakota 3 2.01%
South Dakota 0 0%
Nebraska 1 0.67%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2018, 06:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Is that is true then I will retract my statement about non rhotic accents.

Everything else I said I still stand by though. Also your link says that Upper Midwest English got its O pronunciation from German tongues but there is no proof of that. Such pronunciations are not limited to the Upper Midwest. Furthermore this pronunciation already existed in English anyway and considering the rest of the Upper Midwest phonology (it also had a lot of the same pronunciation rules of New England), there is reason to believe it had a much earlier origin through British and Irish settlers that. Scandinavians. The fact that such pronunciation isn't limited to only Scandinavian sections of the Upper Midwest is telling. Conservative and backed long O sounds have existed in English for a long time and are also part of Northern English, Scottish, and Irish, the latter which did take their English to the Northern US.

Fact is there is scant evidence of any Midwest dialect being very German influenced. English speaking patterns were well established before immigrants arrived to the Midwest. These populations would shave their pronunciation within a generation. Like Poles in Chicago. Their parents may speak with Polish accents but their kids sound like Dennis Farina. And the Chicago accent isn't Polish derived at all anyway. Same way Irish in Boston have Boston accents and not Irish accents. The dominant accent in Boston is English derived and so are the majority if not all accents that are also English except for maybe NCVS which is American in origin and has slight Irish influence (the short U and short O pronunciation for one).

However it is fair to say that if you're in the South, whether you sound Minnesotan, Bostonian, or New Yorker you sound Yankee to them. They don't really differentiate between regions. To their ears it all sounds Yankee. I know because in the South my accent was classified anywhere from NYC to Canada to Minnesota to Wisconsin to New England. People really cannot tell Northerners apart unless they are Northern. And to be honest New Englanders think all Midwest people sound Minnesotan. I guess that is better than sounding Southern though which we supposedly are like.

I seriously find it really odd that you think things like being conservative are not Northern. You realize the modern progressive movement was born in Wisconsin, right? New England isn't the bastion of bright liberalism that people like to claim of it. It isn't THAT long ago that Blacks were in physical danger in Boston. You're trying to act like the utopian diversity is something that New England has been a bastion of forever and trying to make the Midwest out to be a bunch of hick rubes and New England a bunch of Harvard Educated forward thinkers. The Upper Midwest has history on its side in terms of leading progressive movements.

Politically the Upper Midwest is NOT that far from New England. Both places are home to rural White liberals and in fact are among some of the few places on the country where this is a possibility. Just how is liberalism even more Northern anyway? The ethnic groups that you guys keep yipping about (Italians, Irish) historically don't have super liberal cultures anyway. However the Scandinavians who settled the Upper Midwest do. So they alone would be more aligned with the North than many of the White ethnics of New England anyway.
About Blacks being in Physical danger in Boston there are 3 states that had never had a lynching and 3 are in New England.

Unions were first legalized in Massachusetts, Massachusetts was the first state to end slavery, Massachusetts was the first state to allow gay marriage, Massachusetts was the first state to have universal healthcare. While liberal ideas and thoughts existed outside New England those states always were the first to implement them because there was so little opposition. New England Senators, have always been the foil to Southern Conservatives.
Also the saying "In Europe a Yankee is an American, in the South a Yankee is a Northerner, in the North a Yankee is a New Engkandeer, and in New England a Yankee is a vermonter" is not a mistake.
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:32 AM
 
2,013 posts, read 1,011,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
About Blacks being in Physical danger in Boston there are 3 states that had never had a lynching and 3 are in New England.

Unions were first legalized in Massachusetts, Massachusetts was the first state to end slavery, Massachusetts was the first state to allow gay marriage, Massachusetts was the first state to have universal healthcare. While liberal ideas and thoughts existed outside New England those states always were the first to implement them because there was so little opposition. New England Senators, have always been the foil to Southern Conservatives.
Also the saying "In Europe a Yankee is an American, in the South a Yankee is a Northerner, in the North a Yankee is a New Engkandeer, and in New England a Yankee is a vermonter" is not a mistake.
Your definition might work for you, but North is North. I live in WI, and I certainly don't feel (have NEVER felt) that I don't live in the North. You can live within your narrow definition, but it doesn't work for me.
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:41 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,898,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
About Blacks being in Physical danger in Boston there are 3 states that had never had a lynching and 3 are in New England.

Unions were first legalized in Massachusetts, Massachusetts was the first state to end slavery, Massachusetts was the first state to allow gay marriage, Massachusetts was the first state to have universal healthcare. While liberal ideas and thoughts existed outside New England those states always were the first to implement them because there was so little opposition. New England Senators, have always been the foil to Southern Conservatives.
Also the saying "In Europe a Yankee is an American, in the South a Yankee is a Northerner, in the North a Yankee is a New Engkandeer, and in New England a Yankee is a vermonter" is not a mistake.
Ok Btown, that is a weak deflection and you know it! Can you imagine if I said something like this?

Poster- there have been times when Blacks have been in physical danger in New York City.
LINative "About Blacks being in Physical danger in New York City there are 3 counties Upstate that never had a lynching and they are in New York.

Now at least I would be talking about the same state. You are talking about 3 other states that have nothing to do with Boston legally. Anybody can deflect like that. In fact, I can deflect like too and use the same 3 states you say. Just by switching the 3 states in New England to 3 states in the Northeast.

Poster-there have been times when Blacks have been in physical danger in New York City.
LINative - About Blacks being in Physical danger in New York City there are 3 states that had never had a lynching and 3 are in the Northeast.

Do you see what I am saying?
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:47 PM
 
9,383 posts, read 9,529,334 times
Reputation: 5786
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Ok Btown, that is a weak deflection and you know it! Can you imagine if I said something like this?

Poster- there have been times when Blacks have been in physical danger in New York City.
LINative "About Blacks being in Physical danger in New York City there are 3 counties Upstate that never had a lynching and they are in New York.

Now at least I would be talking about the same state. You are talking about 3 other states that have nothing to do with Boston legally. Anybody can deflect like that. In fact, I can deflect like too and use the same 3 states you say. Just by switching the 3 states in New England to 3 states in the Northeast.

Poster-there have been times when Blacks have been in physical danger in New York City.
LINative - About Blacks being in Physical danger in New York City there are 3 states that had never had a lynching and 3 are in the Northeast.

Do you see what I am saying?
Well the 3 states are MA, ME and NH.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:54 PM
 
2,013 posts, read 1,011,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Well the 3 states are MA, ME and NH.
That means nothing.......North is North.
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:12 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,839,346 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
These posts are fascinating, EddieOlSkool! Are you are professional Linguist, or is this a hobby of yours?

At any rate, thank you for breaking this down for everyone.
Studied linguistics and also it is professional. I am involved in dialect coaching as I teach foreigners mostly how to sound American. But also teach Americans how to sound various versions of American. People I see are either foreign or in the performing arts. My studies did lean more on phonology and I have only gotten into history recently as for my profession it wasn't a big part in coaching. You just need to know to teach phonology not history. Few care how the accent came to exist; they just need to speak it.

I also can identify non American accents but not as well and usually they are Anglophone as my specialty is in dialects of English and nothing else. Recently I have gotten into studying Spanish dialects but I have a long way before being able to teach anything there as I don't really speak it all that well (I learned it in High School and always enjoyed dating Latinas).
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