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The other New England states (i.e. Mass) are too small and 'unique' to represent a catergorical definition that describes a large and diverse region of the country.
That makes sense. New York captures elements of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic and New England.
If you think about a state that's anti-Deep South in nearly every possible way, it has to be Mass. The South was heavily invested in chattel slavery and Massachusetts was the leader in the ideological battle against slavery (William Lloyd Garrison, Henry David Thoreau, etc.). It's also the most educated state and one of the most affluent states. It's also the most economically and socially liberal state by an extremely wide margin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
this!!!!!
Ok, this is not 1860 - being "anti-South" does necessarily not make a state the most quintessentially Northern! If the question is being most "anti-South", maybe I would say Massachusetts as well but that is not what the OP is asking.
Is Massachusetts really the most typical Northern state and has the most qualities of the other Northern states? For example, is Massachusetts really a good example of a Rust Belt state? Or is Massachusetts a good example of a Great Lakes state?
I think it comes down to the word quintessential which can be confusing.
I agree with this. While Michigan Minnesota and Wisconsin are all very northern , it's in a midwestern kinda way. "The North" brings to mind New England or even New York, where real Yankees live. The Midwest is just to different to consider them quintessential Northern.
What the hell does this even mean? What makes the Northeast more "Yankee"? I know the Yankees first settled there. I am talking right NOW
Ok, this is not 1860 - being "anti-South" does necessarily not make a state the most quintessentially Northern! If the question is being most "anti-South", maybe I would say Massachusetts as well but that is not what the OP is asking.
Is Massachusetts really the most typical Northern state and has the most qualities of the other Northern states? For example, is Massachusetts really a good example of a Rust Belt state? Or is Massachusetts a good example of a Great Lakes state?
I think it comes down to the word quintessential which can be confusing.
I already said that that perspective makes sense in my post above. But when we people call Mississippi "quintessentially Southern," do they really mean it is the typical Southern state? "Quintessential" is often defined as the "pure and essential essence of something," which is presumably why so many people consider Alabama or Mississippi to be the "quintessential" Southern states. I think a similar argument (only the reverse) could be made for Massachusetts along the same lines.
I think we also need to be clear on what is "Northern." It seems the Lower Midwest has been excluded even though it should technically be counted as "the North." If we are taking whole states into account, as opposed to certain portions of those states, then a good argument could be made for Pennsylvania since it has Midland, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Yankeedom all wrapped into it.
That makes sense. New York captures elements of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic and New England.
Does the Lower Midwest also count as the "North"?
I didn't include states that border the South for a reason. So no. For this discussion, Illinois or Indiana wouldn't fit as part of their state has some, even if minimal Southern influence.
I already said that that perspective makes sense in my post above. But when we people call Mississippi "quintessentially Southern," do they really mean it is the typical Southern state? "Quintessential" is often defined as the "pure and essential essence of something," which is presumably why so many people consider Alabama or Mississippi to be the "quintessential" Southern states. I think a similar argument (only the reverse) could be made for Massachusetts along the same lines.
I think we also need to be clear on what is "Northern." It seems the Lower Midwest has been excluded even though it should technically be counted as "the North." If we are taking whole states into account, as opposed to certain portions of those states, then a good argument could be made for Pennsylvania since it has Midland, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Yankeedom all wrapped into it.
Then if Pennsylvania makes the cut then so would Ohio. It does have all those elements as well, even some similarities to the Mid-Atlantic.
I came in here to say Minnesota, but having read the thread, I think I'll change my opinion to New York.
If I could pick three, I would say New York, Minnesota, and Maine. The other New England states (i.e. Mass) are too small and 'unique' to represent a catergorical definition that describes a large and diverse region of the country.
That is what I am saying, Massachusetts is actually unique in a way. I would say (in fact I have said it on other threads) that Massachusetts is the most quintessential New England State. She literally has everything that the other 5 New England states have, although she is a little short on large scale public lands like the GMNF in Vermont or the WMNF in New Hampshire.
But I would not say Massachusetts is most quintessentially Northern - especially if like the OP the North includes the vast Midwest.
Strong union base
blue collar presence
North East Liberal Intellectuals.
Rust Belt status - declining mill towns, old industrial cities (Springfield, Fall River, Worcester)
White ethnics
White WASP
Muslims
Jews
All those elite universities - and most lean liberal
Lots of ethnic food
Lots of old Yankee food
leans liberal
Berkshires, and Atlantic Coast
Christians are not fanatical church attenders - many Catholics, Unitarians, (they are more Christian there, just don't ascribe to the Trinity) United Church of Christ, American Baptist (the one that broke with Southern Baptist over abolition)
Strong abolition state.
Boston - a big city
a rural presence
Norman Rockwell was from there and took his Americana illustrations from MA life.
Immigrants still coming in.
Little love or identification with the South.
(kind of the Anti-South)
Why NOT NEW YORK? Most of NY is NOT the NYC METRO AREA.
Strong rural agricultural presence
Except for the New York metro area - hunting is very popular
upstate New York is staid and Conservative.
Unlike Massachusetts STRONG EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN PRESENCE - not only upstate, but on Long Island. Remember the Massapequa Tabernacle Scandal - with Jessica Hahn, Jim Bakker, Pastor Profeta?
Methodist Churches are every where
4 H Club popular up state NY and on Eastern Long Island
Beauty Pageants are Popular on Eastern Long Island and Up State NY
Upstate NY and Eastern Long Island have much in common with the South
Colleges in upstate NY lean more traditional - Hamilton, Colgate, Elmira, St. Lawrence, Roberts Wesleyan, Wells, Hobart and William Smith, RPI, RIT, Houghton College, The Kings College, many former Aggie Tech Colleges(Agricultural and Technical Colleges) because of Rural Base. And traditional non activist State Schools.
Love of Pick Up Trucks - again upstate NY and Eastern Long Island
Love of Guns.
High School Sports important.
Display of Confederate Flag.
Affectionate towards the South, and admiration of Southern Values
MANY people from NYS move to the South - and not only Florida - North and South Carolina, Georgia, and Texas. Some maintain dual residences.
In fact, with the exception of Lower Westchester, NYC and boroughs, and Nassau County, LI, NY - much of NY is a lot like the South with snow.
Love of Southern Food.
New York State - the non NYC areas - "Up State" (which is most of the state) and Suffolk County (Eastern LI -except the Hamptons) are a lot like the South.
Friendly people
Rodeos
Western Riding, Dude Ranches
Appalachian Culture and Mountains.
MASSACHUSETTS in the STATE. ( 2nd place -Minnesota)
Good Lord--rodeos, dude ranches, Methodist Church, agricultural base, evangelical base, etc, etc.
I already said that that perspective makes sense in my post above. But when we people call Mississippi "quintessentially Southern," do they really mean it is the typical Southern state? "Quintessential" is often defined as the "pure and essential essence of something," which is presumably why so many people consider Alabama or Mississippi to be the "quintessential" Southern states. I think a similar argument (only the reverse) could be made for Massachusetts along the same lines.
I think we also need to be clear on what is "Northern." It seems the Lower Midwest has been excluded even though it should technically be counted as "the North." If we are taking whole states into account, as opposed to certain portions of those states, then a good argument could be made for Pennsylvania since it has Midland, Mid-Atlantic, Rust Belt, and Yankeedom all wrapped into it.
Bah, I did not notice that the lower states were excluded. Pennsylvania and Ohio definitely should be contenders.
Yeah, another problem is the word "quintessential". On one hand it means most pure but it also means most typical.
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The Quintessentially most NORTHERN state?
