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Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,536,583 times
Reputation: 6253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Oh my, you act like you are offended by my choice. Just a quick process of why I chose Connecticut over the rest and certainly nothing academic or scholarly or worth making a point over.
The fact is your state, as completely different as the rest of NY state may be, is forever indelibly marked as the home of the world's capital city. For better or worse NYC overshadows the rest of your state. It has so many things that make it atypical of the American experience and quintessentially American at the same time that it kind of made me throw the state out of the mix.
If the subject had been "what is the most Midwestern state" I would probably go with any of them besides Illinois because Chicago so completely defines the perception of what Illinois is, even tho the remainder of Illinois is probably a good candidate as the prime example of what a Midwestern state is.
Would say the same thing about "Most Southern state." My beloved home state of Georgia would probably fall behind an Alabama or Mississippi or South Carolina because of the overwhelming presence of Atlanta.
I don't think anything I said refutes any point you make. As a REGION the Midwest is known for agriculture. Historically so and into the present age. Of course agriculture is why the whole country came into existence. People grow things and have farms in every corner of the country. Every state has some product they produce commercially as well. But some places are known for it and when making a quick judgment in a parlor game as this, don't be so offended that someone doesn't recognize that New York state has farms and agriculture is important. But it isn't what one thinks of first and foremost in a (what I thought to be) interesting little discussion of people's view points. Chill please.
For starters, "chill please" is a terrible way to approach debate. Were I over-reacting, I'd have been reprimanded by the moderators. I believe you have mistaken my challenge of your method to be anger.
I still see many flaws in your logic. You are stating that you are comfortable basing your opinions on stereotyping rather than fact; this is a problem. Of all people, I'd expect southerners should especially understand the importance of seeing beyond the tides of ignorant perception.
If you are to make a solid point in an argument of facts, you must recognize even the smallest details. Whether or not you like it.
On this; Midwestern culture, as it is today, was born and cultivated in New York and Pennsylvania, respectively. It was not a model based on the south nor was it some radical off-shoot of Native American tribal culture. It was, and is, a European-American culture that came from the inner northeast, and its roots can still be observed in great quantity in the modern states of NY and PA. One of the key features is not only a shared agricultural economy, but also an industrial one. NY and PA are both part of the overall rust-belt and its leavings still dot the landscape of both states.
An aggravating habit of modern America is to leave NY out of the description for regions to which it belongs. With some research you will find this is a fairly new perception as it relates to the rust belt, as about 40 years ago this didn't seem to occur as much.
NY is described solely by a its tiny, nearly disconnected, culturally unique, southeastern corner ad-nauseam. In this age of the ease of information that is simply unacceptable.
In relatively recent time people from the southern Appalachians settled in Ohio and Michigan, and southern families from Kentucky in Indiana during the height of industry. They came for jobs. They did influence the culture of the immediate areas they settled, but they were the outsiders. Midwesterners were "Yankees".
As an aside, a Yankee is a man from Vermont who eats pie for breakfast. Or a baseball player. I admit to taking some personal umbrage with the label, as it often seems to me to be derogatory and to mean "snobbish, rude, crooked, and radically urban, AKA, useless". Granted, I didn't hate it until I lived in Louisiana for eight years and was constantly inundated with the negative meaning (both in the spirit of humor and not).
Having grown up in a shockingly similar manner to most Appalachian southerners, I have no attachment to the idea of being a Yankee, at least in these popularly spiteful terms.
However, it is exceedingly obvious to me that nobody can agree on what a Yankee is aside from being from the American north or west, or being American in a foreign country altogether. Further, the closer you get to New England, the more specific the definition of the word becomes. Much in the same way as the south shrinks in local definition as you approach the Gulf coast.
For starters, "chill please" is a terrible way to approach debate. Were I over-reacting, I'd have been reprimanded by the moderators. I believe you have mistaken my challenge of your method to be anger.
I still see many flaws in your logic. You are stating that you are comfortable basing your opinions on stereotyping rather than fact; this is a problem. Of all people, I'd expect southerners should especially understand the importance of seeing beyond the tides of ignorant perception.
If you are to make a solid point in an argument of facts, you must recognize even the smallest details. Whether or not you like it.
On this; Midwestern culture, as it is today, was born and cultivated in New York and Pennsylvania, respectively. It was not a model based on the south nor was it some radical off-shoot of Native American tribal culture. It was, and is, a European-American culture that came from the inner northeast, and its roots can still be observed in great quantity in the modern states of NY and PA. One of the key features is not only a shared agricultural economy, but also an industrial one. NY and PA are both part of the overall rust-belt and its leavings still dot the landscape of both states.
An aggravating habit of modern America is to leave NY out of the description for regions to which it belongs. With some research you will find this is a fairly new perception as it relates to the rust belt, as about 40 years ago this didn't seem to occur as much.
NY is described solely by a its tiny, nearly disconnected, culturally unique, southeastern corner ad-nauseam. In this age of the ease of information that is simply unacceptable.
In relatively recent time people from the southern Appalachians settled in Ohio and Michigan, and southern families from Kentucky in Indiana during the height of industry. They came for jobs. They did influence the culture of the immediate areas they settled, but they were the outsiders. Midwesterners were "Yankees".
As an aside, a Yankee is a man from Vermont who eats pie for breakfast. Or a baseball player. I admit to taking some personal umbrage with the label, as it often seems to me to be derogatory and to mean "snobbish, rude, crooked, and radically urban, AKA, useless". Granted, I didn't hate it until I lived in Louisiana for eight years and was constantly inundated with the negative meaning (both in the spirit of humor and not).
Having grown up in a shockingly similar manner to most Appalachian southerners, I have no attachment to the idea of being a Yankee, at least in these popularly spiteful terms.
However, it is exceedingly obvious to me that nobody can agree on what a Yankee is aside from being from the American north or west, or being American in a foreign country altogether. Further, the closer you get to New England, the more specific the definition of the word becomes. Much in the same way as the south shrinks in local definition as you approach the Gulf coast.
When you include phrases like "Sounds like you don't know much" and "overwhelming ignorance" in a direct reply to my comment on what is in essence, a parlor game... not an academic debate, then expect a little pushback. Doesn't have to be worthy of a moderator stepping in to be rude and condescending.
A previous poster gave a very amusing definition of the word "Yankee" and I responded with my experience of being called one while living in England because to the Brits, all Americans are Yanks. Of course I was using stereotypes in my selection. It's a freaking thread asking people's opinions in what I thought was a lighthearted discussion. No proofs to be made. Nobody is right or wrong.. This isn't Nobel Prize level research. Yes, Chill pill time.
Are you really this upset that I voted for Connecticut and not New York in this little poll? Did you miss in my final synopsis that the title of Mark Twain's book, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" probably swayed me years ago to equate Connecticut with Yankeedom? I guess Twain was overwhelmingly ignorant to not make his character from Vermont.
I completely agree that New England is the heart of the North, but that does not mean NJ and NY are more culturally Southern. NY, NJ, and CT have a distinct NYC culture that is a Northern subculture. It could arguably be the most Northern culture, in terms of politics, accents, and way of life.
Your standards of what constitute Northern need to be explained. Why is NYC the heart of Northern identity? You need to explain yourself rather than make baseless statements.
Plus lots of New Jersey has relatively mild winters compared to other Northern states. The Jersey shore has s climate similar to places of the Upper South. Hardly quintessence of Northern.
Our whole thing here for the Super Bowl is "Bold North" 100% of Minnesotans consider this THE NORTH. Culturally, how is it NOT northern? We love hockey and winter sports, we go ice fishing, people got funny accents, they call soda/coke "pop," people are generally very liberal, the cities have an industrial spirit to them though they aren't rust belt, there's a drinking culture that's aligned with the other northern states. It's the North, dude. What you consider northern traits are more NORTHEASTERN traits. Minnesota is just northern all around. The more you are like Canada the more northern in vibe. I also think Washington is very northern, for the record. Accents even have similarities to Minnesota's. And furthermore on that point, Florida is more culturally southern than given credit. Miami has more in common with Houston and New Orleans especially in urban youth culture than with Philadelphia or Chicago. Florida hip hop is of the "Dirty South" variety. It's not all "yeehaw" southern (though much of the state is as well) but it's more "Rick Ross/Ludacris/Li'l Wayne/Li'l Jon/old school Pitbull" southern. This was really evident when I was a teenager in the 2000s. I had a cousin who was really into hip hop culture and her friends all spoke with that mix of southern slang with a Latin twist.
BadgerFilms, I thoroughly enjoy watching you hype your new home state. Ghengis hasn't been pulling their weight lately and it's nice to see someone pick up the slack.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,536,583 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
When you include phrases like "Sounds like you don't know much" and "overwhelming ignorance" in a direct reply to my comment on what is in essence, a parlor game... not an academic debate, then expect a little pushback. Doesn't have to be worthy of a moderator stepping in to be rude and condescending.
A previous poster gave a very amusing definition of the word "Yankee" and I responded with my experience of being called one while living in England because to the Brits, all Americans are Yanks. Of course I was using stereotypes in my selection. It's a freaking thread asking people's opinions in what I thought was a lighthearted discussion. No proofs to be made. Nobody is right or wrong.. This isn't Nobel Prize level research. Yes, Chill pill time.
Are you really this upset that I voted for Connecticut and not New York in this little poll? Did you miss in my final synopsis that the title of Mark Twain's book, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" probably swayed me years ago to equate Connecticut with Yankeedom? I guess Twain was overwhelmingly ignorant to not make his character from Vermont.
You have to remember that ignorance is not necessarily an insult. It is the lack of information. I did not call you willfully ignorant, in fact, I didn't directly say you were in any certain terms.
For whatever reason you also don't seem to be able to understand that I am not upset. I feel you might be reading too much of your own state of mind into this, perhaps? Were I upset I wouldn't be presenting any logical arguments and I likely would be insulting you. Likewise, I would come off as more obsessive, I believe.
I'm challenging you, but this is not personal. Your insistence that it must be emotional kind of baffles me. I think I've been clear that my particular axe to grind plays a minor role at best.
Your standards of what constitute Northern need to be explained. Why is NYC the heart of Northern identity? You need to explain yourself rather than make baseless statements.
Plus lots of New Jersey has relatively mild winters compared to other Northern states. The Jersey shore has s climate similar to places of the Upper South. Hardly quintessence of Northern.
My northern standards include:
Large, populous, educated city
Hilly country (farming or not)
Historical architecture
Liberal politics
Abundance of wealth
Solid Public transportation
Good good (particularly Italian food)
Large population of ethnic whites
Mild or colder weather
Based on this criteria, NYC is the heart of Northern identity. Boston is the heart of New England, Philly anchors the Mod-Atlantic, and DC anchors the Upper South and Lower Mid-Atlantic. NYC blends the New England and Mid-Atlantic culture to create a mix of both Northern cultures. It also best embodies the criteria above, which, IMP, are what come to mind when most Americans think of the North.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,536,583 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by geographybee
My northern standards include:
Large, populous, educated city
Hilly country (farming or not)
Historical architecture
Liberal politics
Abundance of wealth
Solid Public transportation
Good good (particularly Italian food)
Large population of ethnic whites
Mild or colder weather
Based on this criteria, NYC is the heart of Northern identity. Boston is the heart of New England, Philly anchors the Mod-Atlantic, and DC anchors the Upper South and Lower Mid-Atlantic. NYC blends the New England and Mid-Atlantic culture to create a mix of both Northern cultures. It also best embodies the criteria above, which, IMP, are what come to mind when most Americans think of the North.
I wouldn't go around NYC calling people there New Englanders, just FYI.
The problem with your criteria is that it doesn't reflect the north as a whole, at all. It only smacks of the more coastal reaches.
It's the equivalent of me saying the entire south must be like Mississippi because my standards are lots of blacks, poverty, swamps, and horrible educational standards (hyperbole, these are not my actual standards).
It doesn't make sense.
What you're describing is more the representative of the stereotype of the north. Not the reality.
My northern standards include:
Large, populous, educated city
Hilly country (farming or not)
Historical architecture
Liberal politics
Abundance of wealth
Solid Public transportation
Good good (particularly Italian food)
Large population of ethnic whites
Mild or colder weather
Based on this criteria, NYC is the heart of Northern identity. Boston is the heart of New England, Philly anchors the Mod-Atlantic, and DC anchors the Upper South and Lower Mid-Atlantic. NYC blends the New England and Mid-Atlantic culture to create a mix of both Northern cultures. It also best embodies the criteria above, which, IMP, are what come to mind when most Americans think of the North.
All of these things are not limited to the North. Many of them are found in California for instance.
I wouldn't go around NYC calling people there New Englanders, just FYI.
What you're describing is more the representative of the stereotype of the north. Not the reality.
First off, duh! I live in the Tri-state area; I would never do that LOL. I was just saying they are more like New Entlanders than they think they are.
And secondly, that is the point. The point of this debate is to play off the stereotypes and have fun for once. I am trying to describe the northern stereotype and find a state that fits that. I know it’s not the reality, although the coastal Northeast is like that (which is where most Northerners live).
First off, duh! I live in the Tri-state area; I would never do that LOL. I was just saying they are more like New Entlanders than they think they are.
And secondly, that is the point. The point of this debate is to play off the stereotypes and have fun for once. I am trying to describe the northern stereotype and find a state that fits that. I know it’s not the reality, although the coastal Northeast is like that (which is where most Northerners live).
The thread about quintessence not stereotypes
Minnesota also fits your criteria quite well fyi
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