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Old 09-30-2016, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,923,391 times
Reputation: 10539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Poor people living in close proximity with one another, plus guns. This isn't rocket science.

PG county was brought up as a counter, but most of the crime in PG county happens in the denser towns with poorer populations, like Seat Pleasant and Coral Hills. PG County's homicide rate isn't that different from Minneapolis'.

Of course, when you're a racist, you're going to assume race is the cause.
As I've said in the Pittsburgh forum, I think that race does play a role independent of class, but I think it's due to the legacy of institutional racism.

If you look at 19th century murder rates in the large U.S. cities which had good records, there was not a dramatic difference between the white and black murder rates. Something happened over the course of the 20th century which caused white people to become much less violent in their social interactions, but paradoxically caused black people to become more violent.

For white people I think the answer is acceptance of the social contract of justice. Over the course of the 19th century, white Americans put "frontier justice" behind them, and began trusting the police and the courts of law as the arbiters of personal disputes. This meant accepting the monopoly of violence on the part of the state. Murder rates began to fall as a result.

This didn't happen in America's black population for what I think are obvious reasons - that it's hard to trust the criminal justice system to be just when you are repeatedly shown its fundamental injustice and brutality in its dealings in your community. A good example of this happened to a cousin of a black friend of mine two years back. Her cousin and three kids were brutally murdered. The children's father was out at the time, and happened to return to the scene of the crime by the time the police got there. He was clearly not a suspect - he had an alibi. But the police in his community had a practice of running the names of everyone at a crime site to see if there were outstanding warrants against him. He had one for a pretty minor charge, so they threw him in jail. He couldn't get out of jail until after his oldest son's funeral. If you had experiences like that, would you see the criminal justice system as fundamentally just?

 
Old 09-30-2016, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,923,391 times
Reputation: 10539
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Problem with looking at race alone is that it doesn't account for large drops in crime within African-American neighborhoods, as happened in parts of NY and DC from the 90s to the 2010s. The Bronx, for example, is 10% white, and even blacker now than it was in the early 90s, when it was one of the most dangerous places in the country. Its homicide rate has fallen dramatically, and has been running at 5-10 per 100k, lower than whiter places like Boston and Dallas.

In the DC area, Alexandria, VA is 22% black, 16% Latino, and nearly 10,000 people per sq mile. It has both its share of wealth and its share of housing projects. It's had 4 homicides this year on a population of 150,000.
Isn't Alexandria's black population disproportionately recent African immigrants? AFAIK most majority-black neighborhoods in the U.S. where black immigrants are predominant have pretty low crime rates.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 07:54 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,106 posts, read 45,484,200 times
Reputation: 15330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I think it needs to be understood that most of the Black crime obsessives have their own virtual watering holes where they can aggregate stats and studies on Black crime that they can then inject into threads on forums like C-D. These include...

Steve Sailer
American Renaissance
Heartiste (Roissy)
Half Sigma

A lot of overlap between the PUA/Manosphere community and HBD/"race realists"/Black crime obsessives. They are essentially a cult and these blogs are their equivalent of "The Watchtower."

This thread should be closed and/or deleted. The OP did not commence this discussion in good faith.
They also have Paul Kersey's SBPDL(StuffBlackPeopleDon'tLike) where they can complain about Blacks.

Truth is, I think some of those types come here BECAUSE it isn't specifically geared towards that kind of talk. The hateful can go to those sites and are in like company. Here, such types would complain about Blacks here to rock the boat.

I've often thought "now is not the time or the place to go off topic". But then I figure that because this the wrong time and place, that is the point.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 07:55 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,106 posts, read 45,484,200 times
Reputation: 15330
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Isn't Alexandria's black population disproportionately recent African immigrants? AFAIK most majority-black neighborhoods in the U.S. where black immigrants are predominant have pretty low crime rates.
But even 49% Hampton,VA, where Hampton University is located, has a low murder rate. I presume American Blacks live there. I would look to my VA vs MO comparison.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:11 AM
 
11,172 posts, read 22,375,148 times
Reputation: 10924
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecrowds View Post
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...tables/table-6

It is amazing how some cities have some of the highest homicide rates in the world but that many, many cities all over the country have crime rates that are similar to Japan, Germany and South Korea.

The new crime report was released and what a difference from one area to another on homicide rates.

Lincoln, Nebraska for example in 2015 had just 1 homicide for a population of 276,000 people

St. Louis on the other hand had 188 homicides for a population of 317,000 people

Boulder County, Colorado with a larger population then St. Louis had 3 homicides

Baltimore, Maryland had 344 homicides with a population of 620,000

New Hampshire had 14 homicides with a population of 1.3 million or more then double the number of residents of Baltimore

Provo/Orem metro in Utah had 2 homicides with a population of 584,000 people, While Milwaukee had 145 homicides with a similar population of 600,000 people.
You can probably cut this down to neighborhoods everywhere in the country for the most part. City limits can be fairly arbitrary.

I know for Chicago looking at numbers a few years ago:

600,000 people lived in community areas that saw 3 homicides. 0.50/100,000
590,000 people lived in community areas that saw 283 homicides. 47.91/100,000

People in the second bucket were 96 times more likely to get killed, yet it's the same city.

In 2016 with the rising murders due to the police pullback you still are seeing a full 30% of the murders happening in only 3 of the city's 77 community areas that have 7% of the city's population.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As I've said in the Pittsburgh forum, I think that race does play a role independent of class, but I think it's due to the legacy of institutional racism.

If you look at 19th century murder rates in the large U.S. cities which had good records, there was not a dramatic difference between the white and black murder rates. Something happened over the course of the 20th century which caused white people to become much less violent in their social interactions, but paradoxically caused black people to become more violent.

For white people I think the answer is acceptance of the social contract of justice. Over the course of the 19th century, white Americans put "frontier justice" behind them, and began trusting the police and the courts of law as the arbiters of personal disputes. This meant accepting the monopoly of violence on the part of the state. Murder rates began to fall as a result.

This didn't happen in America's black population for what I think are obvious reasons - that it's hard to trust the criminal justice system to be just when you are repeatedly shown its fundamental injustice and brutality in its dealings in your community. A good example of this happened to a cousin of a black friend of mine two years back. Her cousin and three kids were brutally murdered. The children's father was out at the time, and happened to return to the scene of the crime by the time the police got there. He was clearly not a suspect - he had an alibi. But the police in his community had a practice of running the names of everyone at a crime site to see if there were outstanding warrants against him. He had one for a pretty minor charge, so they threw him in jail. He couldn't get out of jail until after his oldest son's funeral. If you had experiences like that, would you see the criminal justice system as fundamentally just?
Yeah, I was scanning this chapter of American Homicide yesterday.

Quote:
Despite such violence, homicide rates remained low into the early 1840s, even among African Americans. Blacks were murdered at the same rate as Whites in New York City and at only a slightly higher rate in Philadelphia--remarkable statistics given the poverty of most African Americans and the high proportion of African American men who worked as sailors or dockworkers.

...

By contrast, the long term impact of the Revolution on Irish Catholics in the North was mixed . . . In the rural Midwest their homicide rate fell to only 4 per 100,000 adults per year, and in Northern New England it fell to 1 per 1,000. That was two-thirds higher than the rate for African Americans or other whites . . . Some of the difference can be explained by proximate causes--that is, by the desperate competition for jobs and by the Irish tradition of recreational violence--but at bottom the higher rate stemmed from a craving for respect, which was all the more powerful in a society dominated by Protestants of English descent who regarded the Irish as "White Negroes."
https://books.google.com/books?id=DN...201900&f=false
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:44 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,106 posts, read 45,484,200 times
Reputation: 15330
Quote:
As I've said in the Pittsburgh forum, I think that race does play a role independent of class, but I think it's due to the legacy of institutional racism.
Well, how would that play out? How many middle and upper class Blacks are committing murder vs underclass Blacks?
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:47 AM
 
56,609 posts, read 80,910,543 times
Reputation: 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As I've said in the Pittsburgh forum, I think that race does play a role independent of class, but I think it's due to the legacy of institutional racism.

If you look at 19th century murder rates in the large U.S. cities which had good records, there was not a dramatic difference between the white and black murder rates. Something happened over the course of the 20th century which caused white people to become much less violent in their social interactions, but paradoxically caused black people to become more violent.

For white people I think the answer is acceptance of the social contract of justice. Over the course of the 19th century, white Americans put "frontier justice" behind them, and began trusting the police and the courts of law as the arbiters of personal disputes. This meant accepting the monopoly of violence on the part of the state. Murder rates began to fall as a result.

This didn't happen in America's black population for what I think are obvious reasons - that it's hard to trust the criminal justice system to be just when you are repeatedly shown its fundamental injustice and brutality in its dealings in your community. A good example of this happened to a cousin of a black friend of mine two years back. Her cousin and three kids were brutally murdered. The children's father was out at the time, and happened to return to the scene of the crime by the time the police got there. He was clearly not a suspect - he had an alibi. But the police in his community had a practice of running the names of everyone at a crime site to see if there were outstanding warrants against him. He had one for a pretty minor charge, so they threw him in jail. He couldn't get out of jail until after his oldest son's funeral. If you had experiences like that, would you see the criminal justice system as fundamentally just?
I also think the allocation of benefits like the G.I. Bill after WW2 allowed White veterans to get an education and enter the middle class, which also coincided with the growth of suburbanization. Both of which were essentially shut off to Black veterans/people. This in turn got a large segment of White people out of the crowded cities, where the crime was likely to take place. Then, you add in some other aspects like the one I mentioned earlier, among others, then you can understand why comparing said groups doesn't become a tit for tat due to socuo-historical realities.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,923,391 times
Reputation: 10539
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Well, how would that play out? How many middle and upper class Blacks are committing murder vs underclass Blacks?
Obviously class plays a role as well, but as I said, race plays an independent role. Poor white people have higher murder rates than middle class white people, but nowhere near as high as poor black people.

I don't mean to "whitesplain" at all, but from everything I have read there still is a disproportionate belief in a lot of poor black neighborhoods that disrespect needs to be met with physical - perhaps even deadly - force. This was a normal belief for white Americans too in the 19th century - especially in the South. Even rich white people engaged in duels after all. It filtered down to the lower classes, both black and white. The white population slowly lost the practice of "rough justice" over the 19th and early 20th century, but it was not completely expunged from the black population. This isn't due to any inferiority, or even because anything is wrong with black culture as a whole, but because black culture is different than white culture, and just because cultural norms shift in one doesn't mean they will shift in the other.
 
Old 09-30-2016, 08:57 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 11 days ago)
 
48,106 posts, read 45,484,200 times
Reputation: 15330
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Yeah, I was scanning this chapter of American Homicide yesterday.



https://books.google.com/books?id=DN...201900&f=false
At one point in Philadelphia, Italian immigrants had a higher murder rate than Blacks did. As more Italian men got married, this started changing.

The "frontier justice" culture had not totally died out in parts of the South. In some instances, murder would go unreported.
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