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View Poll Results: What states do you consider Southwestern?
Arizona 96 96.97%
California 34 34.34%
Colorado 20 20.20%
Hawaii 1 1.01%
Kansas 1 1.01%
Nevada 47 47.47%
New Mexico 96 96.97%
Oklahoma 21 21.21%
Texas 36 36.36%
Utah 29 29.29%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2016, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
1,500 posts, read 1,350,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 812accucheck View Post
Texas, epsecially austin, is more of a west coast state.
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Old 10-28-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,504 posts, read 17,720,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post

How is a state where a sizeable chunk of it the desert, NOT the Southwest?
Sizable chunks of Washington and Oregon are desert. Washington and Oregon are not the Southwest.

Quote:

How is a state where an even larger chunk is wide open plains with ranches full of grazing cattle, and where you CAN still find actual cowboys, NOT the Southwest?
A large chunk of Alberta, Canada is wide open plains full of grazing cattle where you can still find actual cowboys. Alberta is not the Southwest

Quote:

How is a state that borders Mexico, not the Southwest?
The vast majority of Mexico is distant from the U.S. border and posesses more tropical, indigenous, and Carribean culture than anything remotely resembling Texan land and culture. Mexico is not the 'hearth culture' of the Southwest.

Quote:

How do you have a state with almost 40% Hispanic population (mostly Mexican) and not be even a little Southwestern culturally?
There are about a 1,000,000 Mexicans in Cook County, Illinois. 500,000 Mexicans live in New York City. High populations of Mexicans does not define the Southwest. In fact, I would say that where cultural factors are concerned, people of Spanish descent who don't feel strong ties to Mexico (due to the fact that they live(d) on Spanish land grants and were not closely attached to Mexico during the short period of Mexican rule between the New Spain and Gadsden Purchase periods) is a more defining characteristic of the Southwest than people who associate with the nationality of Mexico.

I am not saying that a part of Texas does not qualify as the Southwest, but calling the whole state the Southwest is like calling Kamchatka 'Europe' because it is in Russia.
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Old 10-28-2016, 03:22 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,412 posts, read 7,704,410 times
Reputation: 3054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
You seem to live in a lot of different areas and while I DID say Vegas gives me a staycation vibe it's similar to Phoenix and not the rest of the Southwest. I should be clear that Phoenix is a very unique city for it's region, some may argue that as a pro while others may see it as a con, but ask anyone from another part of the state or New Mexico and they will tell you Phoenix is an Inland Empire with cacti. A lot of Phoenicians see this similarity as well even if they are inexperienced with the rest of the state, they do know that Phoenix is not like Tucson or Prescott or Flagstaff on even a cultural level (Flagstaff is Colorado-lite). Vegas is quite literally identical to Phoenix in this sense, which is why I hate going there. The Strip bores me after a while and being in Vegas makes me feel like I'm home but I still have an expensive hotel room, paying for expensive food, without having my dog with me. Hell I've ended up in random neighborhoods on the east side of Vegas and my drunk self actually thought I was in Phoenix (damn martinis). No joke the cities are very similar.

Considering that Vegas is an Inland Empire-lite and you spend a fair amount of the year in other cities I do not consider you a Southwesterner in the slightest. I sort of have a system in place.

Born and raised native (or spent majority of childhood here at least) = automatic Southwesterner, even if Vegas or Phoenix.
Minimum of five back-to-back years in a "true" Southwest city (Tucson, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, El Paso, etc.) = Southwesterner
Minimum of ten back-to-back years in Phoenix/Vegas/Yuma etc. = Southwesterner

This system is mainly to prevent itchy feet transplants who move out every couple years to get the accreditation, we have plenty of those.

It's because Phoenix and Vegas are a Southwest meets California, and it's pretty obvious. Again, it's better or worse depending on your viewpoint. Vegas is arguably even more Californian like than Arizona given the prevalence of Von's and other California chains that Arizona just simply does not have.







Well good thing the Oklahomans (Okies?) agree here. If "y'all" don't want to be Southern, and me and other Southwesterners will fight tooth and nail to stop you guys from identifying with us, then you get your own region. Name it how you please.

Texas I think is starting to become an adjective. Someone can say "Yeah, but it's Texas," and all of us Americans understand. Describing Texas to a foreigner though is tricky, it really does it's own thing and until you deal with Texans regularly (which all Americans do regardless of where you live they're everywhere) you don't understand. I don't know how to describe Texas without saying it's a Texan thing or something like that.
Your usage of "Okies" is totally fine......although EddieG may disagree with me as he is much more erudite.

Actually, most Okies are fine with being called Southern (for, in fact, that is what we are at the end of the day); it's just that we're not beating the drum to be called that.

Many Okies will prefer the "Southwestern" tag as it captures much more of our ranching/ag/cowboy heritage. We are not using it in the sense of drawing affinity with the desert Southwest of NM/AZ, but more in the sense that we are the far west side of the South, i.e. the opposite end of the Southeast.

Finally, many other Okies prefer just to be called "Western," which would technically be correct as well, if it is being employed in the sense of describing our cowboy culture.

As far as coming up with our own term, "West South Centralers" doesn't really role off the tongue, so Okies probably are stuck with the Southern, Southwestern, or Western nomenclature.
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Old 10-28-2016, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,635,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Sizable chunks of Washington and Oregon are desert. Washington and Oregon are not the Southwest.



A large chunk of Alberta, Canada is wide open plains full of grazing cattle where you can still find actual cowboys. Alberta is not the Southwest



The vast majority of Mexico is distant from the U.S. border and posesses more tropical, indigenous, and Carribean culture than anything remotely resembling Texan land and culture. Mexico is not the 'hearth culture' of the Southwest.



There are about a 1,000,000 Mexicans in Cook County, Illinois. 500,000 Mexicans live in New York City. High populations of Mexicans does not define the Southwest. In fact, I would say that where cultural factors are concerned, people of Spanish descent who don't feel strong ties to Mexico (due to the fact that they live(d) on Spanish land grants and were not closely attached to Mexico during the short period of Mexican rule between the New Spain and Gadsden Purchase periods) is a more defining characteristic of the Southwest than people who associate with the nationality of Mexico.

I am not saying that a part of Texas does not qualify as the Southwest, but calling the whole state the Southwest is like calling Kamchatka 'Europe' because it is in Russia.
A large part of Southwestern culture includes Native Americans. Arizona has the most land dedicated to reservations out of any state (percentage at 25%) and I believe New Mexico has the largest population of Natives. Oklahoma too but that's because they were displaced there due to history. Native Americans are commonly forgotten in this scenario.... a lot of people even here may put them on the back burner but they play a huge role in the culture and activities. For an example the salt river reservation next to Scottsdale has built some of Phoenix's best and newest amenities, the casino, the aquarium, spring training stadiums, golf... I heard a rumor they were planning to build an amusement park... all next to the 101 which is easy access for one of the largest metros in the country. The reservation South of Phoenix has the raceway, a very nice outlet mall, and a casino resort too. In Tucson the Tohono O'odham I believe owns the land for the county fair and holds our big concerts. They do matter and most states I've been to don't even have this dynamic at all, due to genocide and all. In Northern Arizona the Navajo will come out to Sedona, Flagstaff, and sell their arts and jewelry. They also built a super nice resort in Monument Valley and I do believe they were planning other activities for that area. Havasupai tribe in the Grand Canyon offers hiking. Sure New Mexico has similar things going on. They're a big role to the unique culture of the American Southwest.

It's more than just if it's a desert with cowboys in the west or not. Arizona has a ton of old mining towns full of haunted hotels and such and contain saloon shootouts of our Wild West history. We have missions that are still running today on the reservations. Parts of New Mexico and Arizona had the Gold Rush but with less success. Name a state outside of New Mexico and Arizona that includes ALL OF THE ABOVE (Mexicans, Native Americans, Wild West history, Spanish missions, etc.) and IN THE MAJORITY of the state and I'll include them in the Southwest from now on. Deal? Not even Nevada and Utah check that off so I'll be surprised if you could accomplish it. I'm all ears.
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Old 10-28-2016, 08:11 PM
 
1,827 posts, read 1,249,305 times
Reputation: 1822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Sizable chunks of Washington and Oregon are desert. Washington and Oregon are not the Southwest.



A large chunk of Alberta, Canada is wide open plains full of grazing cattle where you can still find actual cowboys. Alberta is not the Southwest



The vast majority of Mexico is distant from the U.S. border and posesses more tropical, indigenous, and Carribean culture than anything remotely resembling Texan land and culture. Mexico is not the 'hearth culture' of the Southwest.



There are about a 1,000,000 Mexicans in Cook County, Illinois. 500,000 Mexicans live in New York City. High populations of Mexicans does not define the Southwest. In fact, I would say that where cultural factors are concerned, people of Spanish descent who don't feel strong ties to Mexico (due to the fact that they live(d) on Spanish land grants and were not closely attached to Mexico during the short period of Mexican rule between the New Spain and Gadsden Purchase periods) is a more defining characteristic of the Southwest than people who associate with the nationality of Mexico.

I am not saying that a part of Texas does not qualify as the Southwest, but calling the whole state the Southwest is like calling Kamchatka 'Europe' because it is in Russia.
It would more be like calling Russia Asian because a part of Russia is in Asia. Well, the majority, so I guess it is more like calling Russia European.
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Old 10-28-2016, 08:56 PM
 
Location: 3219'03.7"N 10643'55.9"W
8,114 posts, read 17,319,771 times
Reputation: 7281
I think we all fall prey to designating entire states as 'yes' or 'no' when the majority of states in the southwest are comprised of land boundaries (an exception being the northern Texas boundary with Oklahoma being the Red River). A land boundary is merely an arbitrary line created by a surveyor. The more logical way to formulate where regions change are where natural features and fauna change. Those boundaries are almost always determined in the western regions by rivers and mountain ranges. If I were to designate which state is most fully characterized in terms of land cover to be southwest, it would be Arizona, followed by New Mexico. Even these two states can be argued, in small regions, to deviate from traditional southwest background. Northern Arizona surrounding Flagstaff feels almost more like Reno/Sparks in Nevada (which I do not consider southwestern). Similarly, the eastern fringe of New Mexico feels to be the end of the Great Plains than it does the southwest. I have remarked in this forum several times that towns like Hobbs and Clovis are more in line with the Great Plains than the southwest. In contrast, El Paso feels much more in line with the area I live in (southern New Mexico) than the rest of Texas. The Pecos River seems to be, to me anyways, where the southwest really kicks in, when driving in New Mexico. If you have driven on US-70 from Amarillo to Alamogordo, you almost instinctually feel that transition kick in about 20 miles west of Roswell, somewhere just before Picacho and Tinnie, two tiny specks of population en route to Ruidoso. I think one really needs to experience where these demarcations are by actually viewing them, rather than looking at a non-descript line that divides two states, and identify that as a border.

A similar corollary to me is population geography, and knowing where that line is where things change. Having lived in New Jersey a lot of my life, I can tell you almost precisely where the NYC metro area transitions into the Philadelphia area, by virtue of newspaper distribution in the local convenience stores, and when the Quick Cheks fade into WaWa, and Tastykakes replace Hostess.

So, for me, on a more granular basis, I would identify most of New Mexico (minus Lea, Eddy, Curry, Quay, and Union counties (the eastern most counties), almost all of Arizona. If you look at the San Juan River on a map, south of that river, roughly, you have another transition between the more traditional Rockies and the southwest U.S. This river basically shadows the Colorado/New Mexico, then Utah/Arizona borders. So, a lot of southern Utah would definitely qualify, per my criteria, as well as the southern wedge of Nevada. Then in California, having flown over southern California many, many times, I would say that you have another, final divide, that comprises the Joshua Tree National Park, then San Bernardino National Forest, and finally the San Gabriel Mountains. This transition runs southeast to northwest, roughly paralleling the Pacific Ocean, 100 miles inland. This is where the southwest ends, and yields to the west. Or, as Mark Arax says in the title of his book, "West of the West".
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