U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-24-2016, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,286 posts, read 3,505,244 times
Reputation: 4463

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happiness-is-close View Post
I'll just say you defeated your own point when you said you need to go to the "outskirts" of Florida's major population centers to find your Southern culture. "outskirts" define anything since when exactly?

That confederate flag is waved everywhere these days. The smaller percentage Southerners become in a Florida metro the more they scream about that flag. And it is only economically disenfranchised white males waving it around (many of whom might not even have Southern ancestry), which kind of lends credit to the stereotypes a lot of Floridians and Northerners have about Southerners.
I have news for you, Floridians are Southerners - whether you like it or not.

Last edited by JMT; 11-24-2016 at 01:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-24-2016, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,233 posts, read 1,511,307 times
Reputation: 1861
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
I have news for you, Floridians are Southerners - whether you like it or not.
I'm a Floridian. Don't call me a Southerner. Most Floridians would take your words with confusion. Many would take it as an offense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2016, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,286 posts, read 3,505,244 times
Reputation: 4463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happiness-is-close View Post
I'm a Floridian. Don't call me a Southerner. Most Floridians would take your words with confusion. Many would take it as an offense.
You can't erase history, nor deny geography and culture. You're in major denial, but you are a Southerner.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2016, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Florida
2,233 posts, read 1,511,307 times
Reputation: 1861
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
You can't erase history, nor deny geography and culture. You're in major denial, but you are a Southerner.
Florida's history, geography, and culture is dramatically different from other states in the American South.

History and culture? Florida, particularly the peninsula, was barely even populated until the 20th century. Some of the first settlers of the area were Cubans and Spanish in the 1800s (particularly in the Tampa Bay area and far South Florida). Northerners started coming by the millions in the 1920s and millions Carribean arrivals in the 1950s. These groups are what has primarily shaped Florida's culture today.

Geography? Does any other state in the South have beaches like ours? Flora like ours? Warm weather all year like ours? There is some overlap in the central Florida region with the lowland areas of the South but there is still a lot of tropical vegetation that can grow in central Florida that can't in places like Savannah and Mobile.

My parents are from the North. I was born in Florida. I'm a Floridian, not a Southerner. Most cultural attributes of the American South I find distasteful. I don't think I have ever met another person like me, born here, who considers themselves a Southerner. I did even bring this topic up a few times with friends and our opinions are universally the same. I even ask Southerners (most recently a tourist from Tennessee) if they consider Florida Southern and they agree it is not. Only here on CD do Southerners seem so vocal about their bizarre opinion of what Florida is.

Only 1/3rd of the people living in Florida were born here but the vast majority of us have backgrounds similar to my own or their parents immigrated from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Not exactly the same picture as a place like Georgia or Alabama. This is why Florida sticks out regionally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2016, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Center City
6,850 posts, read 7,797,618 times
Reputation: 9469
Pennsylvania. PA is lumped in with its northeastern neighbors, but the only region that is culturally northeastern is the Philadephia region. Once you leave Philly's "collar counties," the state takes on a different character - not southern, not midwestern, but kinda "Appalachian." I won't characterize Pittsburgh, as I haven't been there yet. Nevertheless, as a Philadelphia resident, I feel more connected with the BosWash cities along I95 corridor than I do with Pittsburgh far to the west.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,286 posts, read 3,505,244 times
Reputation: 4463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happiness-is-close View Post
Florida's history, geography, and culture is dramatically different from other states in the American South.
No place is monolithic, especially the huge region we call the American South. But as far as Florida being dramatically different, no.

Quote:
History and culture? Florida, particularly the peninsula, was barely even populated until the 20th century. Some of the first settlers of the area were Cubans and Spanish in the 1800s (particularly in the Tampa Bay area and far South Florida). Northerners started coming by the millions in the 1920s and millions Carribean arrivals in the 1950s. These groups are what has primarily shaped Florida's culture today.
Tampa Bay's predominant immigrants were Cuban, Greek & Italian - not Cuban & Spanish. The Spanish went to Pensacola, St. Augustine and the Jacksonville area. By the 1920's Jacksonville and Tampa were already big cities by Southern standards, while Miami was still a small Southern town with Northern influences. This changed after WWII, but the waves of Cuban immigrants to South Florida arrived in the 1950's & 60's - NOT the 1800's.

And how convenient that you totally omit Florida's real founding history and roots, which is as Southern as it gets.

From the Florida Center for Instructional Technology, College of Education at the University of South Florida:

"Settlers began to move to Florida once it became a United States territory. By the mid 1800s, it was a rural territory with large farms and plantations. In 1845 when Florida became a state, the population was approximately 140,000. Of these, 63,000 were African Americans, most of whom were slaves. The state's economy was based on cattle and crops. Slavery was practiced in Florida but not all African Americans were slaves. Many bought their freedom or were freed by their owners. Some were Creoles, free descendents of Spanish citizens of African ancestry. When Florida became a state, it was considered a slave state. This was an important factor in Florida's part in the Civil War. "

And from the Florida History Museum, in Tallahassee:

"Florida contributed more than 15,000 troops to the Confederate war effort. While this was a small number when compared with other southern states, it was the highest percentage of available men of military age from any Confederate state."

You can't wish this sort of History away, no matter how hard you try. This is straight-up Southern, big time.

Remember the Jim Crow laws that lasted well into the mid-20th Century? Florida lived with that, along with the rest of the South. Ever heard of 'Sundown Towns'? Almost every single Beach Town in Florida was one for years, and black people had better be out by dark. It's why American Beach was founded, look it up.

To deny all of this exists in the fabric of Florida is an attempt to erase History.


Quote:
Geography? Does any other state in the South have beaches like ours? Flora like ours?
Again, the South is not monolithic. No region is. Of course Florida is going to have unique geography and plant life in certain parts of the state, due to location alone. Nobody expects it to have waterfalls and mountain lakes like neighboring Georgia.

Quote:
Warm weather all year like ours?
Not true. Your little bubble in SW Florida may seem like this, but it is hardly representative of the entire state at all. Tallahassee has already had lows in the 30's, and it isn't even Winter yet. I know you'll dismiss this though, as that's the Panhandle - part of your hated 'other Florida.'

Quote:
My parents are from the North.
How nice, so is one of mine. The other is a native Floridian.

Quote:
I was born in Florida. I'm a Floridian, not a Southerner.
No you're both, due to location alone. Whether you can deal with it or not.

Quote:
Most cultural attributes of the American South I find distasteful.
Per your posting history, hatred of anything you perceive to be Southern would be more accurate.

Quote:
I don't think I have ever met another person like me, born here, who considers themselves a Southerner. I did even bring this topic up a few times with friends and our opinions are universally the same.
More evidence that you live in a SW Florida bubble, or you're just making this up. And you must not have any black friends.

The overwhelming majority of African-American Floridians identify as Southern, and believe Florida is a Southern State.

Quote:
I even ask Southerners (most recently a tourist from Tennessee) if they consider Florida Southern and they agree it is not.
How cute.

Quote:
Only here on CD do Southerners seem so vocal about their bizarre opinion of what Florida is.
I have news for you as someone that loves Florida. Most of the civilized world has a bizarre opinion of the place.

Quote:
Only 1/3rd of the people living in Florida were born here but the vast majority of us have backgrounds similar to my own or their parents immigrated from the Caribbean or elsewhere.
'Only 1/3rd' is 6.7 million people that you are dismissing! And to assume that they all think like you is ridiculous.

Quote:
Not exactly the same picture as a place like Georgia or Alabama. This is why Florida sticks out regionally.
Oh, so the waves of Koreans, Mexicans and other immigrants from around the World that have moved to Georgia don't count as having shaped cultural changes? Got it.

Your hatred of any and all things you believe to be Southern has caused you to create an 'alterna-Florida' that only exists in your mind. It defies logic in the real World, and isn't based in reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2016, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Florida
2,233 posts, read 1,511,307 times
Reputation: 1861
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
No place is monolithic, especially the huge region we call the American South. But as far as Florida being dramatically different, no.



Tampa Bay's predominant immigrants were Cuban, Greek & Italian - not Cuban & Spanish. The Spanish went to Pensacola, St. Augustine and the Jacksonville area. By the 1920's Jacksonville and Tampa were already big cities by Southern standards, while Miami was still a small Southern town with Northern influences. This changed after WWII, but the waves of Cuban immigrants to South Florida arrived in the 1950's & 60's - NOT the 1800's.

And how convenient that you totally omit Florida's real founding history and roots, which is as Southern as it gets.

From the Florida Center for Instructional Technology, College of Education at the University of South Florida:

"Settlers began to move to Florida once it became a United States territory. By the mid 1800s, it was a rural territory with large farms and plantations. In 1845 when Florida became a state, the population was approximately 140,000. Of these, 63,000 were African Americans, most of whom were slaves. The state's economy was based on cattle and crops. Slavery was practiced in Florida but not all African Americans were slaves. Many bought their freedom or were freed by their owners. Some were Creoles, free descendents of Spanish citizens of African ancestry. When Florida became a state, it was considered a slave state. This was an important factor in Florida's part in the Civil War. "

And from the Florida History Museum, in Tallahassee:

"Florida contributed more than 15,000 troops to the Confederate war effort. While this was a small number when compared with other southern states, it was the highest percentage of available men of military age from any Confederate state."

You can't wish this sort of History away, no matter how hard you try. This is straight-up Southern, big time.

Remember the Jim Crow laws that lasted well into the mid-20th Century? Florida lived with that, along with the rest of the South. Ever heard of 'Sundown Towns'? Almost every single Beach Town in Florida was one for years, and black people had better be out by dark. It's why American Beach was founded, look it up.

To deny all of this exists in the fabric of Florida is an attempt to erase History.




Again, the South is not monolithic. No region is. Of course Florida is going to have unique geography and plant life in certain parts of the state, due to location alone. Nobody expects it to have waterfalls and mountain lakes like neighboring Georgia.



Not true. Your little bubble in SW Florida may seem like this, but it is hardly representative of the entire state at all. Tallahassee has already had lows in the 30's, and it isn't even Winter yet. I know you'll dismiss this though, as that's the Panhandle - part of your hated 'other Florida.'



How nice, so is one of mine. The other is a native Floridian.



No you're both, due to location alone. Whether you can deal with it or not.



Per your posting history, hatred of anything you perceive to be Southern would be more accurate.



More evidence that you live in a SW Florida bubble, or you're just making this up. And you must not have any black friends.

The overwhelming majority of African-American Floridians identify as Southern, and believe Florida is a Southern State.



How cute.



I have news for you as someone that loves Florida. Most of the civilized world has a bizarre opinion of the place.



'Only 1/3rd' is 6.7 million people that you are dismissing! And to assume that they all think like you is ridiculous.



Oh, so the waves of Koreans, Mexicans and other immigrants from around the World that have moved to Georgia don't count as having shaped cultural changes? Got it.

Your hatred of any and all things you believe to be Southern has caused you to create an 'alterna-Florida' that only exists in your mind. It defies logic in the real World, and isn't based in reality.
How's about, pretty much every single demographic change in Florida since the 1880s had been NOT SOUTHERN. Northern transplants, Carribean transplants, Catholics, Jewish, athiest, agnostic.

Florida isn't southern cultured and doesn't want to be. Get over It. And the 1/3rd comment... you realize that only 1/3rd of the people living in Florida were born here? The rest are transplants, primarily from the north and Carribean. The 1/3rd of the people born here are primarily not from Southern backgrounds.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2016, 07:29 AM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
11,810 posts, read 18,796,055 times
Reputation: 11136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye614 View Post
I am extremely familiar with Florida. Let's say that there are no southern influences or characteristics in those metros.

Tampa MSA- 2,554.5 sq m
Orlando MSA- 4,012 sq mi
Miami MSA- 5,178 sq m sq mi
Lee County + Collier County- 2,783 sq mile
Monroe County- 983 sq mi

Total = 15510.5 sq miles out of Florida's total land area (53,624.7) aka roughly 28% of Florida's land area...
This is nothing more than using data to tell a story that you want to tell. The reality is that there is a LOT of land in the southern half of Florida that has practically nobody living on it. It's not about land area, it's about the population. Land doesn't drive social/cultural attributes, people do.

Florida is two states culturally. One is the I-4 corridor southward and the other is everywhere north of it. Certainly there are exceptions in both but generally this is how it stacks up. The further north and south you go from the I4 corridor, the more different the cultures of the "2 Floridas" become.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2016, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,450 posts, read 7,518,998 times
Reputation: 4334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
Pennsylvania. PA is lumped in with its northeastern neighbors, but the only region that is culturally northeastern is the Philadephia region. Once you leave Philly's "collar counties," the state takes on a different character - not southern, not midwestern, but kinda "Appalachian." I won't characterize Pittsburgh, as I haven't been there yet. Nevertheless, as a Philadelphia resident, I feel more connected with the BosWash cities along I95 corridor than I do with Pittsburgh far to the west.
I get your general point, and don't entirely disagree that the 5 Southeastern counties of the Philly area are definitely unique within PA essentially for being part of the core the BosWash/Northeast Corridor, but I strongly disagree with the assertion that Northeast Corridor is what makes the region "culturally Northeastern," as "culture" is much more complex than many acknowledge. In no part of the Northeast is anyone monolithic.

Not to mention, the rest of PA is far from monolithic (the very remote, very mountainous and sparsely populated part of the state, to which you refer as "Appalachia" makes up a very small proportion of the state population--areas like Pittsburgh, Erie, the South central area (Lancaster, York and Harrisburg), Reading, SW-B, and LBE are all important urbanized nodes of the state, the last three of which are becoming/have become anciallry connections to the Northeast Corridor.

Otherwise, outside of the NYC, Philadelphia, and Boston areas, the Northeast is much more rural, remote, and generally more conservative (Vermont and Western Mass. may be the only outlier). I have a feeling that politics is playing a role in your assessment, which is no shock due to the pervasiveness of this past election, but keep in mind that although Trump very narrowly took PA, which is certainly not the norm for a Republican in presidential elections, he only very narrowly lost states like New Hampshire and Maine, and Upstate New York. States like CT, RI and DE also voted more Republican than usual.

Regardless, Pennsylvania has a long-standing history of being a juggernaut of the Northeastern US. Its key role in the Union, heavy (post) industrialization, and role as a "Middle Colony" along with NY and NJ assure that.

No doubt there has been some "social divergence" of late across the Northeast and the US, but this is overwhelmingly due to a manifestation of diifferent economic fortunes, not fundamentally different social attitudes.

We're all much more similar than we realize.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-26-2016, 10:40 AM
 
1,815 posts, read 715,818 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happiness-is-close View Post
Florida's history, geography, and culture is dramatically different from other states in the American South.

History and culture? Florida, particularly the peninsula, was barely even populated until the 20th century. Some of the first settlers of the area were Cubans and Spanish in the 1800s (particularly in the Tampa Bay area and far South Florida). Northerners started coming by the millions in the 1920s and millions Carribean arrivals in the 1950s. These groups are what has primarily shaped Florida's culture today.

Geography? Does any other state in the South have beaches like ours? Flora like ours? Warm weather all year like ours? There is some overlap in the central Florida region with the lowland areas of the South but there is still a lot of tropical vegetation that can grow in central Florida that can't in places like Savannah and Mobile.

My parents are from the North. I was born in Florida. I'm a Floridian, not a Southerner. Most cultural attributes of the American South I find distasteful. I don't think I have ever met another person like me, born here, who considers themselves a Southerner. I did even bring this topic up a few times with friends and our opinions are universally the same. I even ask Southerners (most recently a tourist from Tennessee) if they consider Florida Southern and they agree it is not. Only here on CD do Southerners seem so vocal about their bizarre opinion of what Florida is.

Only 1/3rd of the people living in Florida were born here but the vast majority of us have backgrounds similar to my own or their parents immigrated from the Caribbean or elsewhere. Not exactly the same picture as a place like Georgia or Alabama. This is why Florida sticks out regionally.
Yes a lot people don't realize that as late as 1950 Florida's population was smaller than that of West Virginia.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top