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Old 11-19-2016, 09:21 AM
 
74 posts, read 40,752 times
Reputation: 74

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
if he cuts taxes, it will include tax cut for middle class. liberals always say a GOP tax cut is only for top 1 percent.

Show us examples of where tax cuts for the rich helped the middle class.

It hasn't worked since it was introduced by Reagan in the late 70s, and doesn't work.

I'll be waiting, thanks.



It sucks to live amongst a group of people that actually think giving the rich more of your money, gives you more money in return.

In theory, it should work, but like most things, it doesn't work, because they continue to put the money in offshore accounts. The richest American's don't re-invest their money back into the middle class. They don't. Sorry. Take a few college classes. Do your research. That's why so many people don't buy Trump's rhetoric. He has donated to politicians for decades. That's not anti-establishment. A rich white guy is not anti-establishment. He has colluded with government for decades. But you buy it and eat it up.

Productivity is at an all-time high, so why aren't wages going up with it?

Why the Gap Between Worker Pay and Productivity Is So Problematic - The Atlantic

You seriously need to wake up. Corporations are in it for themselves, not the worker. Automation is going to change a lot of industries. These jobs Trump promised (that ironically so many Trump supporters seem to have when they're making fun of protestors) are not coming back.

Shift to automation may prevent Trump from delivering on his jobs promise - Chicago Tribune
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Old 11-19-2016, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,589 posts, read 4,011,810 times
Reputation: 2926
my point is there there has never been a GOP tax cut only for the rich. Democrats said that about the Bush tax cut but he actually moved many poorer people off the income tax rolls. in my opinion, that was a mistake because people who don't pay income tax are much more likely to vote for a party that wants to raise income taxes on the people that do. i think everybody should have some skin in the game.

you can't explain how raising taxes on the middle class and rich help the economy. many Democrats want to do both. even Keynes said that excessive taxation hurts the economy. GOP has never argued exclusive tax cuts for the rich or espoused a 'trickle down' economic philosophy. that is the biggest strawman argument in politics.


given the economy the past 8 years, how are Democrats in a place to say GOP is bad for the economy. look at the fiscal problems in states and cities controlled by Democrats. perhaps you should your own advice about taking college classes. you want to sign me up your class but you haven't demonstrated you are qualified to be an economics professor.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-19-2016 at 10:09 AM..
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:35 AM
 
74 posts, read 40,752 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
my point is there there has never been a GOP tax cut only for the rich. Democrats said that about the Bush tax cut but he actually moved many poorer people off the income tax rolls. in my opinion, that was a mistake because people who don't pay income tax are much more likely to vote for a party that wants to raise income taxes on the people that do. i think everybody should have some skin in the game.

you can't explain how raising taxes on the middle class and rich help the economy. many Democrats want to do both. even Keynes said that excessive taxation hurts the economy. GOP has never argued exclusive tax cuts for the rich or espoused a 'trickle down' economic philosophy. that is the biggest strawman argument in politics.


given the economy the past 8 years, how are Democrats in a place to say GOP is bad for the economy. look at the fiscal problems in states and cities controlled by Democrats. perhaps you should your own advice about taking college classes. you want to sign me up your class but you haven't demonstrated you are qualified to be an economics professor.

You're missing the point.

Is it raising taxes on the rich or having them pay their fair share? Raising would imply that they've already been paiyng their fair share. Trump's refusal to show everyone his tax returns was an admission of guilt that he hasn't paid. That is now our President-elect. A guy who refused to show he paid taxes, and even said it made him "smart" to avoid it, and people just elected this guy. Unbelievable. He doesn't have to pay but you do. Is this the twilight zone?

The GOP wants to keep their money. Productivity is at an all-time high and wages for the proletariat are stagnant. That's not right.

Philosophically, if you're a wealthy business owner, wouldn't you want consumers to have more money to buy your product? It makes zero sense. People are paid less, they afford less, they don't buy your product. You make less.

Now they're just using automation to make money, so at some point human capital will be worth much less and there will be many people without jobs.

Trump actually convinced these morons in rural OH, MI, PA and WI that he is bringing back their factory jobs.

The fiscal problems we have were in place far before 2008, and Obama extended Bush-era tax cuts. It goes far beyond the last 8 years. In economics, you don't simply just look at a small time frame.

Take some classes. Learn something.
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Old 11-19-2016, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
30,223 posts, read 67,372,527 times
Reputation: 15865
Liberals who feel disillusioned by the outcome of the election should be moving to nicer liberal cities in swing states---Columbus, OH; Pittsburgh, PA; Asheville, NC; Durham, NC; Grand Rapids, MI; Richmond, VA; Madison, WI; etc.

Obviously the cities in NC and VA would be the best options for those who hate winter (although I do believe Asheville still gets quite a bit of wintry weather). Pittsburgh is a wonderful city with a lot to offer, but our population continues to decline because we have too many old people dropping dead.
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Old 11-19-2016, 02:21 PM
 
3,596 posts, read 7,709,405 times
Reputation: 2878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
my point is there there has never been a GOP tax cut only for the rich. Democrats said that about the Bush tax cut but he actually moved many poorer people off the income tax rolls. in my opinion, that was a mistake because people who don't pay income tax are much more likely to vote for a party that wants to raise income taxes on the people that do. i think everybody should have some skin in the game.

you can't explain how raising taxes on the middle class and rich help the economy. many Democrats want to do both. even Keynes said that excessive taxation hurts the economy. GOP has never argued exclusive tax cuts for the rich or espoused a 'trickle down' economic philosophy. that is the biggest strawman argument in politics.


given the economy the past 8 years, how are Democrats in a place to say GOP is bad for the economy. look at the fiscal problems in states and cities controlled by Democrats. perhaps you should your own advice about taking college classes. you want to sign me up your class but you haven't demonstrated you are qualified to be an economics professor.
Keynes was also the largest proponent of government spending.

So, you know. You gotta be careful when selectively quoting Keynes.

Also, the trickle-down economic theory was specifically suggested by the GOP. It was the Almighty Lord Reagan, Holder of the Seven Keys of Heaven, The Grand Bargainer Who Never Bargained But Rose To Prominence By Telling The House Unamerican Activities Committee That His Enemies Were Communists, who gave us trickle-down nonsense.

The economy has literally never been better. We have long since left the recession, labor and productivity are at all time highs, unemployment is very low, and we are in this weird state where interest rates are so very low but we're suffering neither inflation nor deflation.

Those are all Obama administration efforts, and specifically, his installation of Janet Yellen to the Fed.

I do not think I will ever again see such a master-class in politics as what the Obama Administration achieved in that regard. The installation of Yellen is an institutional powerplay that reads like something from Foucault.

Anyways, where were we? Taxes? Yes. The GOP has historically (and I mean, as of 10 years ago) lowered tax rates on capital gains (how we the wealthy typically earn money) and the top range on earned income. You, the middle class, are left paying the bill.

By the by, we are a nation of very wealthy people who pay very little in taxes, and extraordinarily, unbelievably wealthy corporations that literally pay $0 in taxes.

So, you know. Guess who's going to get stuck with the bill? It won't be me. I did /vote/ to change this, but Trump supporters were just so damned intent on making sure we got richer at their expense.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:36 AM
 
56,675 posts, read 80,995,527 times
Reputation: 12530
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
Liberals who feel disillusioned by the outcome of the election should be moving to nicer liberal cities in swing states---Columbus, OH; Pittsburgh, PA; Asheville, NC; Durham, NC; Grand Rapids, MI; Richmond, VA; Madison, WI; etc.

Obviously the cities in NC and VA would be the best options for those who hate winter (although I do believe Asheville still gets quite a bit of wintry weather). Pittsburgh is a wonderful city with a lot to offer, but our population continues to decline because we have too many old people dropping dead.
Grand Rapids is "liberal"? Ann Arbor would be a better choice in regards to a city in MI.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:54 AM
 
3,961 posts, read 3,498,160 times
Reputation: 6362
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Grand Rapids is "liberal"? Ann Arbor would be a better choice in regards to a city in MI.
Grand Rapids isn't conservative, the city hasn't voted for a republican since 1988. However Donald Trump did win Kent County by 2.8 points. The demographics continue to shift, in the past it would have been closer to 10.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,589 posts, read 4,011,810 times
Reputation: 2926
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTalk View Post
You're missing the point.

Is it raising taxes on the rich or having them pay their fair share? Raising would imply that they've already been paiyng their fair share. Trump's refusal to show everyone his tax returns was an admission of guilt that he hasn't paid. That is now our President-elect. A guy who refused to show he paid taxes, and even said it made him "smart" to avoid it, and people just elected this guy. Unbelievable. He doesn't have to pay but you do. Is this the twilight zone?

The GOP wants to keep their money. Productivity is at an all-time high and wages for the proletariat are stagnant. That's not right.

Philosophically, if you're a wealthy business owner, wouldn't you want consumers to have more money to buy your product? It makes zero sense. People are paid less, they afford less, they don't buy your product. You make less.

Now they're just using automation to make money, so at some point human capital will be worth much less and there will be many people without jobs.

Trump actually convinced these morons in rural OH, MI, PA and WI that he is bringing back their factory jobs.

The fiscal problems we have were in place far before 2008, and Obama extended Bush-era tax cuts. It goes far beyond the last 8 years. In economics, you don't simply just look at a small time frame.

Take some classes. Learn something.
all I see you doing is bragging about yourself and insulting people as morons without providing any evidence that you are smarter or more educated than anybody else. this is the 2nd time that you have asserted that i need to take classes and learn something, and I am a complete stranger to you. i don't think that i am going to learn much from a person who thinks supply side economics is 'trickle down'.

i'm not sure what Trump's tax returns have to do with this topic. that seems like something between him and the IRS.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-20-2016 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,589 posts, read 4,011,810 times
Reputation: 2926
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldwine View Post
Keynes was also the largest proponent of government spending.

So, you know. You gotta be careful when selectively quoting Keynes.

Also, the trickle-down economic theory was specifically suggested by the GOP. It was the Almighty Lord Reagan, Holder of the Seven Keys of Heaven, The Grand Bargainer Who Never Bargained But Rose To Prominence By Telling The House Unamerican Activities Committee That His Enemies Were Communists, who gave us trickle-down nonsense.

The economy has literally never been better. We have long since left the recession, labor and productivity are at all time highs, unemployment is very low, and we are in this weird state where interest rates are so very low but we're suffering neither inflation nor deflation.

Those are all Obama administration efforts, and specifically, his installation of Janet Yellen to the Fed.

I do not think I will ever again see such a master-class in politics as what the Obama Administration achieved in that regard. The installation of Yellen is an institutional powerplay that reads like something from Foucault.

Anyways, where were we? Taxes? Yes. The GOP has historically (and I mean, as of 10 years ago) lowered tax rates on capital gains (how we the wealthy typically earn money) and the top range on earned income. You, the middle class, are left paying the bill.

By the by, we are a nation of very wealthy people who pay very little in taxes, and extraordinarily, unbelievably wealthy corporations that literally pay $0 in taxes.

So, you know. Guess who's going to get stuck with the bill? It won't be me. I did /vote/ to change this, but Trump supporters were just so damned intent on making sure we got richer at their expense.
the GOP has always argued for lower taxes for everybody. the reagan tax cuts lowered taxes across the board. Reagan and other GOP have never used the expression 'trickle down economics' or said we should only cut taxes for the rich. what you are doing is using class warfare rhetoric, pushing the notion that if the taxes on the rich and corporations are lowered, the middle class are getting screwed over. the truth is keeping taxes reasonable for all citizens and corporations encourages work, investment, risk taking, etc that leads to economic innovation and growth, which benefits everybody.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 11-20-2016 at 08:59 AM..
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:22 AM
 
Location: North Idaho
22,709 posts, read 28,770,848 times
Reputation: 43832
OP, it's very simple. All you need to do is to pull up one of those political maps that shows the vote by county. Be aware that it would not be the whole county, just the big city in that county. Pick out the big city in that little blue dot and that is where you go.
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