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Old 10-24-2017, 04:41 PM
 
29,944 posts, read 27,396,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
I disagree, especially for metros under about 2 million, MSA's are better than UA's. An example I have is Rochester, go 7-8 miles from the city South, and you are in a rural area. However, many people commute and entertain themselves in the actual city of Rochester even if they live out in Rush or Livingston County.

While places like NY or Washington the Urban area sprawls enough that one of two things happen 1) outside the urban area the city is almost inaccessible for everyday events or 2) the rural population contribution is so small it is irrelevant, that isn't true in Rochester, or similarly sized cities, but Southern Monroe County, Livingston County etc. that have densities under 500ppsm have about 1/3rd of the total population of the metro, and it starts really close to the city center.
I think we're actually agreeing more than disagreeing, unless your argument is that municipal population should be the sole criterium for major city status and that MSAs are arbitrary--the two arguments that I am very strongly disagreeing with here.
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
I think we're actually agreeing more than disagreeing, unless your argument is that municipal population should be the sole criterium for major city status and that MSAs are arbitrary--the two arguments that I am very strongly disagreeing with here.
Yes we do agree I skimmed, I think the bigger the city the more accurate UA vs MSA is because the rural outskirts become more detached and proportionally insignificant the bigger the UA, but in smaller cities they are significant portions that if ignored can warp your idea of the city. Boston and Rochester has almost the same amount of people outside their UA but in their MSA but Boston is 4x larger so the extra is 8% of so if the MSA (4.7 vs 4.3 M) vs Rochester where it's 33% (1.1 vs .7)

However both are far better than city limits or County.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
MSA isn't perfect, but it's definitely not arbitrary at all. There are very clear criteria that apply across the board based on commuting patterns.

My preference is somewhere between urbanized area and MSA.
It's very arbitrary, NYC's metro area contains Montauk for Christ's sake. That's a place that has little connection to NYC, with almost nobody commuting between the two.

And nobody is referring to Middletown, Newburgh, Stamford, etc. when they talk about NYC.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
It's very arbitrary, NYC's metro area contains Montauk for Christ's sake. That's a place that has little connection to NYC, with almost nobody commuting between the two.

And nobody is referring to Middletown, Newburgh, Stamford, etc. when they talk about NYC.
Metro NYC contains Montauk because it's in Suffolk County, which has at least 25% of its workers commuting to the core NYC counties. That's the opposite of arbitrary.

You may dispute the county-based nature of MSAs, but the designation of MSAs is not arbitrary by definition.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Somerville, MA
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Without naming cities, I think a lot more than population and sports teams go into determining major vs. non-major cities. For example, I feel like New Orleans is a major city and Providence is not. However, Providence has a larger metropolitan area. For me, New Orleans is more important culturally and economically to its region and the country as a whole than Providence is. It's more influential, and it's far better known (and visited). For me, differentiating between major and minor cities is highly subjective.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
Without naming cities, I think a lot more than population and sports teams go into determining major vs. non-major cities. For example, I feel like New Orleans is a major city and Providence is not. However, Providence has a larger metropolitan area. For me, New Orleans is more important culturally and economically to its region and the country as a whole than Providence is. It's more influential, and it's far better known (and visited). For me, differentiating between major and minor cities is highly subjective.
That wouldn't be the case with Providence if it weren't overshadowed by Boston, whereas New Orleans has a pretty big sphere of influence with no immediate competing cities.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Denver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
Without naming cities, I think a lot more than population and sports teams go into determining major vs. non-major cities. For example, I feel like New Orleans is a major city and Providence is not. However, Providence has a larger metropolitan area. For me, New Orleans is more important culturally and economically to its region and the country as a whole than Providence is. It's more influential, and it's far better known (and visited). For me, differentiating between major and minor cities is highly subjective.
This is how I feel. Sphere of influence is the best metric in my opinion.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_himself View Post
This is how I feel. Sphere of influence is the best metric in my opinion.
"Sphere of influence" isn't itself a metric though. However there are several metrics that measure sphere of influence to some degree, like MSA, CSA, DMA, etc.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:32 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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I consider Albuquerque major for its region, but only because the region's other major cities (Denver, Phoenix) are a good seven hours drive away.

And at about a million in the area, it stands in stark contrast with the thousands of square miles of emptiness that surrounds it.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Metro NYC contains Montauk because it's in Suffolk County, which has at least 25% of its workers commuting to the core NYC counties. That's the opposite of arbitrary.

You may dispute the county-based nature of MSAs, but the designation of MSAs is not arbitrary by definition.
25% of Suffolk commutes to NYC? I find that hard to believe.

In most of Suffolk, the average resident doesn't go to NYC at all except maybe to see a Ranger game or a Billy Joel concert. It's a different world out there.

And Montauk is like 3 hours away from the NYC border, they're really not intertwined at all.
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