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*** On a historic tidbit related to the state of Illinois and Wisconsin.
When I heard Northern Illinois and what is all of Chicago proper. Was ALMOST part of Wisconsin when it was to become a state. I thought ----> it should have been.
Downstate Illinoisians, seem to give little respect or have pride in having a Global city in their state? (my perspective) Though Chicagoland actually gives a lot to the state. The common perception is it takes from its southern half and blamed a lot.
So much so ----> believe a Young Professional from Iowa, would be much more likely to re-locate to Chicago. Then one from downstate Illinois. Perhaps the state being so long? That has it's perspective looks more south also?
* But as for the Northern Illinois originally to have a Wisconsin -Illinois border run south of Lake Michigan. It's true.
- Chicago residents today might have had a Wisconsin zip code if the originally proposed northern boundary of Illinois had been approved. It was a straight line from the southernmost tip of Lake Michigan to just south of the Rock and Mississippi River confluence.
Another University link below gives even more indept historical accounts. Even in how mistakes in border placements of Indiana and Ohio. But also how Illinois and Wisconsin were to join that northern border.
- The first option - dated back to the Northwest Ordinance, which prescribed an east-west line touching the southern tip of Lake Michigan as the northern boundary of the third state (Illinois) and the southern boundary of the fifth state (Wisconsin) to be created from the Northwest Territory.
- The second option - in setting the Illinois boundary was to use the northern line of either Ohio or Indiana as an alternative limit for Illinois. Note how the Northwest Ordinance intended the northern boundaries of all three states to be on the same parallel. But a geographic misunderstanding led to several adjustments. In 1787 the map used by Congress mistakenly showed the southern tip of Lake Michigan to be several miles further north. Thus when Ohio became a state in 1803 its northern boundary was set too far north. The port of Toledo on Lake Erie thus became part of Ohio rather than Michigan.
*** In the end and what the OP ask --- I do think the divide of Northern Illinois to Southern Illinois is greater then the Upstate NY from NYC.
This sways for me on ( in choosing and my opinion) RESPECT and PRIDE toward their states largest cities in the nation and Southern Illinois a bit closer to the South Purhaps then North more and more.
Having lived in both places, I'm going to say the Chicagoland-Downstate divide is greater. People in the New York metro area go upstate all the time for leisure purposes. People in Chicagoland never go downstate.
That's what I figured. Upstate NY is a lot more scenic and has the Adirondacks and Finger Lakes. And the Hudson Valley and Castskills serves as a sort of transition zone.
While more Chicagoans vacation in Wisconsin than downstate Illinois. The main links are the flagship state university in Champaign-Urbana and the state capital in Springfield.
*** On a historic tidbit related to the state of Illinois and Wisconsin.
When I heard Northern Illinois and what is all of Chicago proper. Was ALMOST part of Wisconsin when it was to become a state. I thought ----> it should have been.
Chicago and the rest of Northern Illinois doesn't get any more respect from people from Wisconsin than they do people from Southern Illinois. Google the term FIB.
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This sways for me on ( in choosing and my opinion) RESPECT and PRIDE toward their states largest cities in the nation and Southern Illinois a bit closer to the South Purhaps then North more and more.
The majority of the residents in Southern Illinois live the St. Louis metropolitan area. They are not looking towards the South in the slightest. Only a small minority identify with the South, and they live near the Kentucky border.
Chicago and the rest of Northern Illinois doesn't get any more respect from people from Wisconsin than they do people from Southern Illinois. Google the term FIB.
Exactly.
W.r.t. the whole "Chicago as part of WI" thing, as a former resident of both IL and WI, Chicago would have been just as "out of place" (as it were) in WI as it would be in IL, or even IN for that matter.
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Originally Posted by DavePa
Downstate Illinoisians, seem to give little respect or have pride in having a Global city in their state? (my perspective) Though Chicagoland actually gives a lot to the state. The common perception is it takes from its southern half and blamed a lot.
So much so ----> believe a Young Professional from Iowa, would be much more likely to re-locate to Chicago. Then one from downstate Illinois. Perhaps the state being so long? That has it's perspective looks more south also?
I don't agree with this notion at all. The quibble between Chicago and downstate stems more from not seeing eye-to-eye politically (in several respects) and financially (in almost all respects). There is no "lack of pride" that I've experienced, but then most people who don't live in a big city tend not to have pride in the city, regardless of whether it's Chicago/IL, NYC/NY, Atl/GA, and the reverse is, arguably, even stronger.
There is no evidence that someone from Iowa is more likely to relocate to Chicago than someone from downstate Illinois. My conjecture is that someone from the rural Midwest is far more unlikely to move to Chicagoland than someone from a small or medium Midwestern city, but then there is rural land in spades all over the Midwest, including WI, IL, IA, MI, IN, etc.
Last edited by Maintainschaos; 02-16-2017 at 09:46 AM..
That's what I figured. Upstate NY is a lot more scenic and has the Adirondacks and Finger Lakes. And the Hudson Valley and Castskills serves as a sort of transition zone.
While more Chicagoans vacation in Wisconsin than downstate Illinois. The main links are the flagship state university in Champaign-Urbana and the state capital in Springfield.
People from Chicagoland end up at all the state universities to one degree or another. You also have Illinois State not far from U of I, then of course all of the directional universities.
Driving from Chicago to St. Louis essentially goes like this: Lake Shore Dr to 55, suburbs, corn, Bloomington-Normal, corn, Springfield, corn, suburbs that exist but which are not highly visible from the highway / corn, downtown St. Louis. It's 300 miles of the same landscape.
I will say though in terms of things that unite large parts of the state, half the state is Cubs territory. The other half is Cardinals.
My conjecture is that someone from the rural Midwest is far more unlikely to move to Chicagoland than someone from a small or medium Midwestern city, but then there is rural land in spades all over the Midwest, including WI, IL, IA, MI, IN, etc.
I'm not sure I'd say that at all. Rural America is emptying out because there are no jobs. Mostly this happens because the kids grow up and move away while their parents age in place and slowly die off. Jobs tend to be located in bigger metro areas, so that is where these children of rural families end up.
I'm not sure I'd say that at all. Rural America is emptying out because there are no jobs. Mostly this happens because the kids grow up and move away while their parents age in place and slowly die off. Jobs tend to be located in bigger metro areas, so that is where these children of rural families end up.
Maybe in the exurbs or far-flung suburbs, but I don't know many people who end up moving to the (big) city itself or even some of the closer-ring suburbs. My impression (but it is just that), is rural Midwesterners are more likely to end up in the Des Moines/Madisons/Peorias of their respective states (or move out all together), rather than the Chicagos/Detroits/Milwaukees due to a less stark transition.
Chicago and the rest of Northern Illinois doesn't get any more respect from people from Wisconsin than they do people from Southern Illinois. Google the term FIB.
The majority of the residents in Southern Illinois live the St. Louis metropolitan area. They are not looking towards the South in the slightest. Only a small minority identify with the South, and they live near the Kentucky border.
I intended with my comment that Southern 1/3 or Illinois can look east toward Memphis and Nashville in connecting and to become transplants? Or to go to cities further south, like toward Texas cities. Then up north. I see that as fair?
Do you really feel those in Southern Illinois are more to seek a College north of Illinois/Urbana? I do think it is not strong? But could be increasing. I do see Iowan students are far more likely to choose Chicago Universities and even from Wisconsin.
As for FIB's. I had relatives in the Dell's. I surely knew they looked forward to the main tourist season to end LOL. Really was not a disdain toward Chicagoan's, those far more further south have. (in my opinion) Sorry
I really have no bone to pick here.
Let's just say I agree with this then.
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Originally Posted by boulevardofdef
Having lived in both places, I'm going to say the Chicagoland-Downstate divide is greater. People in the New York metro area go upstate all the time for leisure purposes. People in Chicagoland never go downstate.
I would just add Pennsyvania's Poconos Mountians region of Northeast PA, along with Upstate NY as NYC's playground too.
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Originally Posted by Maintainschaos
W.r.t. the whole "Chicago as part of WI" thing, as a former resident of both IL and WI, Chicago would have been just as "out of place" (as it were) in WI as it would be in IL, or even IN for that matter.
I don't agree with this notion at all. The quibble between Chicago and downstate stems more from not seeing eye-to-eye politically (in several respects) and financially (in almost all respects). There is no "lack of pride" that I've experienced, but then most people who don't live in a big city tend not to have pride in the city, regardless of whether it's Chicago/IL, NYC/NY, Atl/GA, and the reverse is, arguably, even stronger.
There is no evidence that someone from Iowa is more likely to relocate to Chicago than someone from downstate Illinois.
I still feel Iowans (young people especially or others). Still look toward Chicago Then St Louis (just my opinion). Plenty of Young Iowan transplants to Chicago I'd day? I see that should be no disagreement.
I still maintain - Chicagoans connect, link and because of having Wisconsin as their playground, more to Wisconsin.(when I lived in Chicago ----> all I heard was a Wisconsin weekend). You SEE a steady packed roadway to the Dell's alone in summer weekends. So this LINK and LOOKING TOWARD the north is fair to me - and link positively to Wisconsin over South Illinois.
The rheteric politically also. Does not endure them to look to its south either. (you did note aspects politically)?
You already linked Southern Illinois to St Louis also. Right?
My state of PA splits in ties, connections, and influence. Between Pittsburgh and Philly sports teams. Add NYC for Some too. So that is proximity too.
It also could be argued that New Yorkers link MORE to my state of PA? As their Playground is also the Poconos of Northeastern PA. It is also in NYC's CSA.
I intended with my comment that Southern 1/3 or Illinois can look east toward Memphis and Nashville in connecting and to become transplants? Or to go to cities further south, like toward Texas cities. Then up north. I see that as fair?
Again, the majority of Southern Illinois residents are living in metropolitan St. Louis. They're not likely to look towards cities in Tennessee or even Kansas City. For better or for worse, St. Louis still has the view of itself as being above those cities. It sees itself as having more of a connection with Chicago. This is partially supported by the fact that St. Louis is in the top 10 for places Chicagoans move to and in the top 10 places sending people to Chicago. Where Chicagoans Are Most Likely to Move When They Leave the Windy City | NBC Chicago
Another odd thing linking to St. Louis to Chicago is the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. It's been spread to small towns not associated with either city along I-55 all the way down to St. Louis. It hasn't taken St. Louis to the degree that it's taken Chicago as of yet, but it's still a random thing linking the two places that I thought was interesting.
As for people completely removed from metro St. Louis and down by the Kentucky border, sure, why not. They might be sending people to places like Nashville. However, you could say the same thing about people in Central Illinois near the Indiana border. They're closer to Indianapolis than they are Chicago from a geographic standpoint.
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Do you really feel those in Southern Illinois are more to seek a College north of Illinois/Urbana? I do think it is not strong? But could be increasing. I do see Iowan students are far more likely to choose Chicago Universities and even from Wisconsin.
I knew plenty of people who went to Northern, and that's in DeKalb. A lot of people going to public universities are weighing how much money they are receiving, and the directional universities can be tempting. Although something is weird with the Southern Illinois system. Carbondale, the flagship campus, has been losing people for ages. The Edwardsville campus in metro St. Louis, however, has been increasing steadily.
As for me personally, I went to college at private university in Chicago after leaving the St. Louis area.
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As for FIB's. I had relatives in the Dell's. I surely knew they looked forward to the main tourist season to end LOL. Really was not a disdain toward Chicagoan's, those far more further south have. (in my opinion) Sorry
I really have no bone to pick here.
Let's just say I agree with this then.
Chicago is a popular tourist destination for people from all over the state of Illinois. If you're able to look past views that people from Wisconsin hold, then I frankly don't know what's holding you back regarding the rest of Illinois.
As a former NY native, I can say that Upstate gets punished by NYC. Taxes are high but without all the culture and amenities of NYC, so it's a double negative upstate.
There is culture, but it isn't to the same degree as NYC. On the other hand, the outdoor amenities are more plentiful Upstate and the overall COL is still generally around the national average, give or take. So, there is some balance to the state in some aspects.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 02-16-2017 at 11:53 AM..
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