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Old 05-01-2017, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,823,898 times
Reputation: 4497

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Where I don't agree with you is that somehow the Mid-Atlantic does not include entire states. I get the impression from your description of Virginia areas that to you, the Mid-Atlantic has something to do with built up areas and does not include rural areas? But if so, that is your own private opinion and does not meet the historical record or even the US Government. The Mid-Atlantic has nothing to do with the Bos-Wash corridor or being right on the coast.
Your impression would be wrong...

Southside and Southwest Virginia are culturally removed from other regions that are thought of as typically Mid-Atlantic. By culturally removed, I mean from a standpoint of population exchange, economic exchange, media relations; etcetera, there are other examples. Has nothing to do with rural vs urban because there are pockets of rural areas in all the metros I listed in VA that are Mid-Atlantic, as well as in Metro DC and Metro Baltimore...

Southwest VA is more closely linked to WV and TN, and NC to a lesser extent, than to even any of the three large Virginia metros. Southside VA maintains ties to HRVA and Greater Richmond but is most closely linked to Piedmont North Carolina (Triangle, Triad). The culture of those Virginia areas is not indicative of Mid-Atlantic and goes far beyond just built form...

I will agree with something you said, which is something I've always said, which is that VA and MD (and WV) have long had cultural links to the Northeast that goes back a very, very long time. I doubt Richmond, Baltimore, etc were ever as deeply southern as Charlotte and Atlanta to begin with. Of course, there is no way to factually prove that, it's just a hunch I have long held. Southern? Absolutely, but very seriously believe not nearly as strong as the rest of the South ever...
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:15 PM
 
Location: San Francisco/East Bay and Los Angeles, formerly DC and Boston
2,138 posts, read 3,429,651 times
Reputation: 1811
Delaware was a slave state with barely any slaves. Just 1% of its pop. at the start of the Civil War. Maryland and Missouri a little more at around 10-12%. While Virginia, like the rest of the South, was 1/3rd+. Kentucky was around 20%.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,511 posts, read 2,969,673 times
Reputation: 2737
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Delaware was a slave state with barely any slaves. Just 1% of its pop. at the start of the Civil War. Maryland and Missouri a little more at around 10-12%. While Virginia, like the rest of the South, was 1/3rd+. Kentucky was around 20%.
Which is another reason why out of all of these states, Delaware has by far the strongest case of not being Southern. It was literally formed out of Pennsylvania, to which it is still economically, culturally and structurally linked. It never left the Union and is the only "slave state" to never assemble Confederate regiments or militias. 60% of its population lives within 50 miles of Philadelphia, and 75% of its population overall lives in the Philadelphia CSA and media market. It is the 6th most Irish-American state and 8th most Italian-American state, both demographic characteristics of the Northeast. And Belton v Gebhart was the only case in Brown v Board of Education that ruled that segregation was unconstitutional before the Supreme Court.
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Old 05-02-2017, 08:06 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,130 posts, read 9,899,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Your impression would be wrong...

Southside and Southwest Virginia are culturally removed from other regions that are thought of as typically Mid-Atlantic. By culturally removed, I mean from a standpoint of population exchange, economic exchange, media relations; etcetera, there are other examples. Has nothing to do with rural vs urban because there are pockets of rural areas in all the metros I listed in VA that are Mid-Atlantic, as well as in Metro DC and Metro Baltimore...

Southwest VA is more closely linked to WV and TN, and NC to a lesser extent, than to even any of the three large Virginia metros. Southside VA maintains ties to HRVA and Greater Richmond but is most closely linked to Piedmont North Carolina (Triangle, Triad). The culture of those Virginia areas is not indicative of Mid-Atlantic and goes far beyond just built form...

I will agree with something you said, which is something I've always said, which is that VA and MD (and WV) have long had cultural links to the Northeast that goes back a very, very long time. I doubt Richmond, Baltimore, etc were ever as deeply southern as Charlotte and Atlanta to begin with. Of course, there is no way to factually prove that, it's just a hunch I have long held. Southern? Absolutely, but very seriously believe not nearly as strong as the rest of the South ever...
Yeah, they are rural.

But the Mid-Atlantic is NOT the Bosh-Wash Corridor and its offshoots down I95 and I64. Nor is it just the DC/Baltimore metro area and the Delmarva peninsula. We have maps from hundreds of years ago that show the Mid-Atlantic as entire states/colonies, many of which show all of New York down to all of Virginia. There is nothing to do with being cultural connected, population exchange or rural/urban etc.. It is a regional boundary like New England, the Southeast, the Midwest etc.. Even the Census Bureau's definition includes ALL of Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey, including rural areas far away from the metro areas of Philadelphia and New York City.

Anything that tries to narrow it down and say xyz part of the state is Mid-Atlantic and abc area is not is just someone's opinion. An opinion that would be interesting but still just an opinion.
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Old 05-02-2017, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,823,898 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Yeah, they are rural.

But the Mid-Atlantic is NOT the Bosh-Wash Corridor and its offshoots down I95 and I64. Nor is it just the DC/Baltimore metro area and the Delmarva peninsula. We have maps from hundreds of years ago that show the Mid-Atlantic as entire states/colonies, many of which show all of New York down to all of Virginia. There is nothing to do with being cultural connected, population exchange or rural/urban etc.. It is a regional boundary like New England, the Southeast, the Midwest etc.. Even the Census Bureau's definition includes ALL of Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey, including rural areas far away from the metro areas of Philadelphia and New York City.

Anything that tries to narrow it down and say xyz part of the state is Mid-Atlantic and abc area is not is just someone's opinion. An opinion that would be interesting but still just an opinion.
But I never said the Mid-Atlantic was synonymous with the BosWash corridor, nor did I say it was synonymous with Delmarva. Nor did I say that the Mid-Atlantic doesn't include rural areas, nor did I say that the Mid-Atlantic characteristics are limited to built form similarities...

Lol...

You're shadow boxing ghost sentences that were never uttered...
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Old 05-02-2017, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
3,295 posts, read 1,647,912 times
Reputation: 3548
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGuyForLife View Post
Which is another reason why out of all of these states, Delaware has by far the strongest case of not being Southern. It was literally formed out of Pennsylvania, to which it is still economically, culturally and structurally linked. It never left the Union and is the only "slave state" to never assemble Confederate regiments or militias. 60% of its population lives within 50 miles of Philadelphia, and 75% of its population overall lives in the Philadelphia CSA and media market. It is the 6th most Irish-American state and 8th most Italian-American state, both demographic characteristics of the Northeast. And Belton v Gebhart was the only case in Brown v Board of Education that ruled that segregation was unconstitutional before the Supreme Court.
I think Delaware and Missouri have equal cases for not being southern out of the states listed. Overall, they lean northeast and Midwest, respectively, with Missouri officially being classified as Midwestern.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:41 AM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,100 posts, read 4,730,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I think Delaware and Missouri have equal cases for not being southern out of the states listed. Overall, they lean northeast and Midwest, respectively, with Missouri officially being classified as Midwestern.
I would only argue that Delaware's case is slightly stronger in that even the "slower lower" is not full blown southern (I know from personal experience).

The southern third of Missouri, especially the southeastern extremes, are very much full blown southern.
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Old 05-03-2017, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
183 posts, read 163,387 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
I would only argue that Delaware's case is slightly stronger in that even the "slower lower" is not full blown southern (I know from personal experience).

The southern third of Missouri, especially the southeastern extremes, are very much full blown southern.
I don't have any personal experience with Delaware, but I agree with Missouri. SE Missouri, the Ozarks, and the boothill are considered by Geographers as the "Upland/Upper South. As someone who grew up in KY and spent a lot of time in TN, I would feel quite at home in towns in Missouri like Cape Girardeau, New Madrid, Sikeston, and West Plains.

That area of Missouri has a lot of Southern Things about it
- Humid Subtropical Climate
- Scotish-Irish Descendants
- The Boothill is the same latitude as Nashville and I-40 in Middle and Eastern TN
- Cotton was a big time cash crop for the Missouri Boothill

The northern 1/2 to 2/3rds of the state is more typical of the Midwest (e.g. German ancestry, Humid Continental Climate, more typical Midwest landscape, etc.)
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,100 posts, read 4,730,726 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by fivenine View Post
I don't have any personal experience with Delaware, but I agree with Missouri. SE Missouri, the Ozarks, and the boothill are considered by Geographers as the "Upland/Upper South. As someone who grew up in KY and spent a lot of time in TN, I would feel quite at home in towns in Missouri like Cape Girardeau, New Madrid, Sikeston, and West Plains.

That area of Missouri has a lot of Southern Things about it
- Humid Subtropical Climate
- Scotish-Irish Descendants
- The Boothill is the same latitude as Nashville and I-40 in Middle and Eastern TN
- Cotton was a big time cash crop for the Missouri Boothill

The northern 1/2 to 2/3rds of the state is more typical of the Midwest (e.g. German ancestry, Humid Continental Climate, more typical Midwest landscape, etc.)
Basically I'd say anything south of Marion, Illinois can be safely called true cultural south. That area where the rivers meet is truly where the Midwest and Dixie mix culturally and climatically.

Even if Illinois was a free state that extreme southern end is not what I would call typical of a northern culture or speech.

In relevance to the subject, that part of IL is further south than Delaware.

The southern half of "Little Egypt" is to Illinois what the northern panhandle is to West Virginia; pretty much in the wrong state.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:29 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
2,081 posts, read 2,897,764 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Basically I'd say anything south of Marion, Illinois can be safely called true cultural south. That area where the rivers meet is truly where the Midwest and Dixie mix culturally and climatically.

Even if Illinois was a free state that extreme southern end is not what I would call typical of a northern culture or speech.

In relevance to the subject, that part of IL is further south than Delaware.

The southern half of "Little Egypt" is to Illinois what the northern panhandle is to West Virginia; pretty much in the wrong state.
I would agree with this. I usually say Illinois south of Route 146 is the beginning of the cultural south.
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