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Old 12-14-2017, 07:36 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 1,237,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119 View Post
Who *we* are.

And for those who are on the defense, you can find a post just last week where I stated that pound for pound, Chicago might provide the best quality of life when considering value.

It doesn't mean we can't admit the major issues that exist. And it doesn't mean we can't show pride. But the Chicago vs. NYC narrative absolutely exists, and it's played out.

All of the nice things you just said in your post are mirrored in my prior posts. Great people, great sports town, yet admitting or talking about the problems is off limits for you guys? People from Boston are proud as hell, but they're also self deprecating. Seems like there's no place for honest and contrite feedback. Are we going to pretend like everything is perfect? Or is there room for debate on the very public issues?
The issues are out there, just like any other city. Illinois and its pension problem, and the city and its finances, although definitely improving. A murder rate that higher than NYC or LA, albeit constrained to a few south and west side neighborhoods. Chicago is now going through a transition; it is now whiter, and more educated ( the most educated of the five largest, including your NYC ) and many minorities are leaving for greener pastures. As a result, the population is stagnant. It is all there.

But the way you present and take away from the thing that makes people feel that they can be proud ( not quite 2.0 Texan proud ) of their Chicago is one of an expat who has lost the feeling for his former residence and slams it. It is sometimes natural to cut down a place after moving from it. I'm not saying you can't criticize, but come on. Every place has its issues. One thing that Chicago has over NY is livability and beauty; I find very little beautiful about NY, although it is truly a vast, impressive city. Every place has positives and negatives, every place for sure. You have every right to feel NYC is best, and have your reasons, but don't take away from others and the way they feel.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Chibostoncaliseattle
2,086 posts, read 1,107,480 times
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I will lay down my pistol. Texas 2.0 was pretty harsh. I still love Italian beef.

Btw, liked living in California the least. What was your experience?
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:53 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 1,237,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119 View Post
I will lay down my pistol. Texas 2.0 was pretty harsh. I still love Italian beef.

Btw, liked living in California the least. What was your experience?
I grew up there. My corner of California was paradise when I was growing up, but has now unfortunately changed for the worse. The hills I roamed as a kid are now overrun with subdivisions, and is far more crowded than I remember with most of the strawberry fields and orange groves now gone. But I still have many ties there, and certainly won't slam a place that influenced who I am in a very positive way.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Chibostoncaliseattle
2,086 posts, read 1,107,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justabystander View Post
But I still have many ties there, and certainly won't slam a place that influenced who I am in a very positive way.
But you'll admit the problems that exist there, as you just began to do. Right?
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:29 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,911 posts, read 6,546,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119 View Post
^I totally believe that YOU are comfortable with Chicago.

Please go to city vs. city and look at Rayrena's thread. NY vs. Chicago rapid transit.

Do you think she's from New York or Chicago? You guessed it.

And when she voiced her opinion, was it unsure in tone? Or did she seem well equipped, with her thoughts and points ready, on why Chicago is superior?

On behalf of all Chicagoans, can we stop now everyone? Just be you. You don't see Boston and Seattle pumping their chest nearly as much. It's like Texas 2.0 the last decade.
You keep missing the point, mwj, no matter what I say. My responses to you were all in the category of saying CHICAGO DOES NOT HAVE AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX. I even spelled it out to you: I said my comments had nothing to do with any attribute of Chicago, but just how Chicagoans feel about the place. My focus was in how Chicago felt about itself, not about what others felt about it. Why would I give a rat's ass what is in Rayrena's thread? What on earth did I say that has anything to do with Chicago being in competition with New York?

My arguments in no way suggested that Chicago was superior.

I'm confounded here: I thought I expressed myself clearly. What exactly is it you don't get?
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:02 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,911 posts, read 6,546,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
I'd say..... if you moved from Chicago happy in another city and it's fine with Chicagoans I'm sure. If you see NYC as the greatest vs it and all other cities. Most will agree it is in a tier on its own. But Chicago after the Great Fire (way back then) choose it would not build (no tenements it chose) as NYC and its street-grid would have full alleys (including downtown) and standard set-backs of housing. It has the "L" that it need not feel is inferior either .... but for overall coverage of a NYC. But it is very easy to navigate, clean and a 95% on time rating NYC lacks in with its own set of issues.

Chicago's Manhattanizing (for lack of a better word) was NOT TO BE NYC. It created the skyscraper and needs no peer as to be Manhattan. New Yorkers would luv to boast the huge tree-lined streets with greens as a Lincoln Park or Wicker Park, Lakeview etc. Plus the lakefront right there and parks and beaches in its core. Yes Central Park is a Great to best. But Chicago's need not take a back seat either.

Even in its Manhattanizing.... Chicago chose the Podium-style high-rise and skyscrapers. NYC has few examples with ample parking right in the base of their building. Sq/Footage is just to pricy to use for a car. Podium-style if done right still has retail street-level as most (especially newer ones) in Chicago do.

Chicago also was set up to have retail and businesses on main streets. NYC any street probably can as density gives foot-traffic for more. But to work in a Great Urban city as Chicago's core. Yet go home to a quiet block tree-lined and highly walkable..... is a asset in itself too.

Many New Yorkers still have no problem with Chicago's prime neighborhoods on vibrancy for those that moved there.

So downplaying Chicago far inferior to NYC offerings (today especially) really they should take a bit of offence to that as if it was without aspects of offerings and vibrancy in its own right.

No one will take offence to claim NYC is in its own tier in density and quantity of offerings and street-life to more busy streets over most on main streets as Chicaogo. But to say INFERIOR EN MASS TO NYC to CHICAGOANS ..... or just keep downplaying it on C-D? Really, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH A INFERIORITY COMPLEX. Chicago and Chicagoans despite their cities own issues..... NEED NOT BE LABEL INFERIOR without calling you on this INFERIORITY LABEL as waaay overblown. It is PRIDE and COMFORTABLE IN ITS OWN SKIN TODAY. That is all ... and defense of their level of vibrancy in its own right to defend.

The city has a more vibrant and booming core then it has seen for many decades even waaaay back. Just virtually all is more centered in its heart vs throughout the city. A clear city split in two. But even that is not new.

It's just as New Yorkers taking offence in someone claiming its grimy and over-crowded too much of what should be a good thing..... that to them is off the mark and THEY TAKE OFFENSE. But to some it has gotten overwhelming today. It isn't for everyone. Why many may see other cites are a better fit for them.

I myself prefer Chicago's density and in the neighborhoods - it can still be peaceful ..... yet with ALL the Big city offerings one could need still right there. Blocks of attached sure-dense wall of tenements (as NYC)? Are not everyone's idea of the best. Nor blocks of a wall of attached row-homes to the sidewalks. I'd say Chicago is more the perfect density where you really lack nothing in top attributes even by NYC standards. As it did much more in the past. TODAY IT NEED NOT FEEL INFERIOR IMO.

I remember the days ..... many Chicagoans and suburbanites.... downtown was dead to them. Just another declined neighborhood they wrote off. TODAY IT'S PRIDE IN IT. Nothing wrong with Pride.
Outstanding post. NYC is not the measure of what others aspire to be. The pejorative "manhattanization" that you mentioned dates back to the 1960's and was coined in San Francisco as that city started to experience the rise of truly tall buildings that seemed out of place in its setting and which was destroying the contour of the hills.

San Francisco wasn't disrespecting New York, wasn't denying its greatness....it was merely saying "we don't want to be New York. We want to be San Francisco." San Francisco was not making comparisons. San Francisco, very much like I observed about Chicago, is quite comfortable in its own skin. San Francisco is our 13th largest city. Does SF care about that: hell no. SF is the 4th largest city in California. Cause for concern? hell no. Incredibly, SF is the Bay Area's second largest city and only the biggest city, San Jose, is over a million people...does this matter to SF? a resounding HELL NO!!!!!!!

We choose to put our cities, like everything else, into a pecking order, and we thrive on it. In C/D, we thrive on it in steroids. Perhaps C/D should partner with USN&WR and come out with a yearly ranking of all US cities. They'd make a fortune selling that magazine.
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,911 posts, read 6,546,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119 View Post
^There's the proud athlete that lettered in three sports, but doesn't seem to speak about it much. Then there's the guy who lettered in football, and wears his letterman jacket everywhere.

New York, the former. Chicago the latter.

Said it once, and I'll say it again. I love Chicago. It's a true American gem. It is not, ESPECIALLY BASED ON THE CRITERIA THAT WAS GIVEN TO US IN THE OP, the greatest city in America. Detroit had its day. Chicago had its day. Plenty to be prideful of, and I am: I LOVE showing people around my hometown. Not one person says anything other than "Wow, what a great city." Nobody said you can't be proud.

Lets circle back to the OP- My vote is for New York.

The Chicago defending is at an all time high, man. Didn't think it could get higher when I left, but it seems it may have. To the point that we can't even call out it's issues, and mention it's successes.

Yikes.
Did you ever consider that a point will come when like Rome, it will be said, "New York had its day"? Did you ever consider that that time may well not be that far away?

Of course, there are many around the world who have come to this conclusion, and certainly not without a great deal of evidence: The United States had its day.

New York's rise parallels that of its nation. My suspicion: the world that after WWII became centered around the North Atlantic is losing that centrality. The shift goes to the most important stretch of humanity, a line that goes straight across Eurasia. A mere century back in time, NYC was nowhere near the top of the list of the world's greatest cities. Who is to say in our fast changing world that it will be anywhere near the top 100 years from now? And maybe one of its own native sons, a child of Queens, who came into this world with a fully grown mess of putrid orange hair will have caused a big part of the decline.

And while we're at it: since "Detroit had its day", wouldn't it be true that when Detroit had its day, it was helping NYC have its? Blue collar, thriving Detroit was the product of a super pumped America, all gears spinning. Detroit's being diminished, diminishes us all.....very much including NYC.

American cities are all in the same American boat. And its leaking. Big time. We far more are dependent on each other than competitive with each other. Let's act that way.

Last edited by edsg25; 12-15-2017 at 04:29 AM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Chibostoncaliseattle
2,086 posts, read 1,107,480 times
Reputation: 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
Did you ever consider that a point will come when like Rome, it will be said, "New York had its day"? Did you ever consider that that time may well not be that far away?

Of course, there are many around the world who have come to this conclusion, and certainly not without a great deal of evidence: The United States had its day.

New York's rise parallels that of its nation. My suspicion: the world that after WWII became centered around the North Atlantic is losing that centrality. The shift goes to the most important stretch of humanity, a line that goes straight across Eurasia. A mere century back in time, NYC was nowhere near the top of the list of the world's greatest cities. Who is to say in our fast changing world that it will be anywhere near the top 100 years from now? And maybe one of its own native sons, a child of Queens, who came into this world with a fully grown mess of putrid orange hair will have caused a big part of the decline.

And while we're at it: since "Detroit had its day", wouldn't it be true that when Detroit had its day, it was helping NYC have its? Blue collar, thriving Detroit was the product of a super pumped America, all gears spinning. Detroit's being diminished, diminishes us all.....very much including NYC.

American cities are all in the same American boat. And its leaking. Big time. We far more are dependent on each other than competitive with each other. Let's act that way.
I mean, the idea that the US is the greatest country in the world could and should be debated. Admitting our achilles heel(s)- education quality, budgetary misalignment, healthcare conundrum, shrinking working class, continued corruption- is an important part of the healing process, no? Maybe we're past the point of no return as your post suggests, but hiding from the issues while whispering to each other that the US is the greatest country in the world isn't a real productive activity.

The point of the original post was to come up with the greatest American city based on the criteria given. It wasn't my post. The OP offered his vote with input, and I offered counter points, and cast my vote. If you don't think comparing American cities is productive, being that we're running the same race, and sinking, that's fine. It doesn't mean that each city is the same, and that one city doesn't have more issues than another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
And while we're at it: since "Detroit had its day", wouldn't it be true that when Detroit had its day, it was helping NYC have its? Blue collar, thriving Detroit was the product of a super pumped America, all gears spinning. Detroit's being diminished, diminishes us all.....very much including NYC.
As for this quote, I don't think the demise of Detroit was a large burden on New York, no. Just as I'm not certain it hurt Chicago in any significant way. Cleveland, where they made a lot of the auto parts and thrived in parallel with Detroit? Yes.

I was hesitant to include articles or data input, as it can squander meaningful narrative. But, for those of us Chicagoans who really want to peel the onion back, and do some self reflection, here are some good reads to think about:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...nd-of-laggards
https://chicago.curbed.com/2016/1/11...e-price-growth
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...exing-problems
https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/4/19...s-annex-growth


A few things we can all address, and some ideas that I alluded to in my prior posts- unfair funding of schools, lagging home price growth (at worst, a mere indicator of slow economic growth), an unhealthy public sector with very little transparency and misguided spending, and the inability/or lack of urgency in creating new jobs to diversify the cities economic portfolio.

Sure, maybe this is a microcosm of the greater US issues. But, doesn't it feel like the problems are magnified when you look at Chicago? That's my point. It's not a dig.

Last edited by mwj119; 12-15-2017 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:11 AM
 
Location: USA
17,815 posts, read 8,894,085 times
Reputation: 13351
Vancouver, BC.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,911 posts, read 6,546,699 times
Reputation: 5372
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwj119 View Post
I mean, the idea that the US is the greatest country in the world could and should be debated. Admitting our achilles heel(s)- education quality, budgetary misalignment, healthcare conundrum, shrinking working class, continued corruption- is an important part of the healing process, no? Maybe we're past the point of no return as your post suggests, but hiding from the issues while whispering to each other that the US is the greatest country in the world isn't a real productive activity.

The point of the original post was to come up with the greatest American city based on the criteria given. It wasn't my post. The OP offered his vote with input, and I offered counter points, and cast my vote. If you don't think comparing American cities is productive, being that we're running the same race, and sinking, that's fine. It doesn't mean that each city is the same, and that one city doesn't have more issues than another.



As for this quote, I'm fairly certain you contradicted yourself. I could be wrong, I have a tendency to misinterpret things. But you said the demise of Detroit helped NYC have it's day. Then you said, Detroit being diminished diminishes all of us, including NYC. I don't think the demise of Detroit was a large burden on New York, no. Just as I'm not certain it hurt Chicago in any significant way. Cleveland, where they made a lot of the auto parts and thrived in parallel with Detroit? Yes.

I was hesitant to include articles or data input, as it can squander meaningful narrative. But, for those of us Chicagoans who really want to peel the onion back, and do some self reflection, here are some good reads to think about:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...nd-of-laggards
https://chicago.curbed.com/2016/1/11...e-price-growth
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...exing-problems
https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/4/19...s-annex-growth


A few things we can all address, and some ideas that I alluded to in my prior posts- unfair funding of schools, lagging home price growth (at worst, a mere indicator of slow economic growth), an unhealthy public sector with very little transparency and misguided spending, and the inability/or lack of urgency in creating new jobs to diversify the cities economic portfolio.

Sure, maybe this is a microcosm of the greater US issues. But, doesn't it feel like the problems are magnified when you look at Chicago? That's my point. It's not a dig.
No, what I said was when Detroit was rolling on all cyllnders, pumping out those cars, NYC benefitted from it, just like the rest of us. And whuat has happening to Detroit, the hollowing out of the automotive industry, diminishes all in the US, very much including NYC.
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