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Old 05-09-2018, 07:36 AM
 
1,816 posts, read 3,426,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
The Back Bay is definitely more of Greater Downtown. As you stated, there's no real break, unless you’re willing to argue that the Theater District isn’t downtown.
I could just as easily say that there’s no real break between lower Manhattan and Midtown. It’s certainly a continuous urban built-up area all the way up through and beyond Midtown. I think the more important thing is how these uptown areas developed historically. The original downtown is the oldest part of the city. In the 19th century the wealthy moved up town making new fashionable districts that were at first residential but soon became commercial and institutional too. That’s how places like Atlanta Midtown and Buckhead, University Circle in Cleveland, the Forest Park area in St. Louis, and Back Bay Boston became centers that rival the original downtown—because of shopping or fashionable residences or offices or cultural institutions or a combination of all those things. You can argue forever over connection and disconnection but how they developed ecologically tells us more.

Boston might have had a third uptown around Coolidge Corner if that weren’t part of a suburban town that discourages development. Even so it’s a bustling area but nothing like Downtown or Back Bay.
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:45 AM
 
9,384 posts, read 9,546,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missionhill View Post
I could just as easily say that there’s no real break between lower Manhattan and Midtown. It’s certainly a continuous urban built-up area all the way up through and beyond Midtown. I think the more important thing is how these uptown areas developed historically. The original downtown is the oldest part of the city. In the 19th century the wealthy moved up town making new fashionable districts that were at first residential but soon became commercial and institutional too. That’s how places like Atlanta Midtown and Buckhead, University Circle in Cleveland, the Forest Park area in St. Louis, and Back Bay Boston became centers that rival the original downtown—because of shopping or fashionable residences or offices or cultural institutions or a combination of all those things. You can argue forever over connection and disconnection but how they developed ecologically tells us more.

Boston might have had a third uptown around Coolidge Corner if that weren’t part of a suburban town that discourages development. Even so it’s a bustling area but nothing like Downtown or Back Bay.
There is a clear difference between Downtown and Midtown, while it would be Downtown for a smaller city it's a noticeable game and there is distinct neighborhoods between the Fidi and Midtown
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:02 PM
 
2,166 posts, read 1,465,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
I would strongly disagree, and your answer indicates you haven't been to the area in quite a while. Your comments are relevant more to pre-2010 University Circle -- and not totally then (because there was Little Italy, which has always been dense, but was way more insular than it is, now. Apparently you ignored that I noted housing projects have mushroomed all around UC, so your comment simply is not true.
I strongly disagree.. Oakland and UCity Philly are much more dense, and also much bigger in scope. A big part of a downtown is commerce. Oakland is the third largest commercial center in Pennsylvania - larger than DT Erie or Allentown or Harrisburg etc. And it is growing as well - its the hottest office market in Pittsburgh, there is no available space, and new projects are going up to create it. also has more high rise residential going up all over. UCity in Philly is also going gangbusters. Cleveland's version is much less dense and urban, and has much less commerce. even if its growing, its not catching up.
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Old 05-09-2018, 01:05 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,013 posts, read 102,621,396 times
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Denver has neighborhood shopping areas, but no secondary downtown with the big skyscrapers, museums, major parks (well, there are a few big parks on the west side), etc.
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Old 05-09-2018, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Aurora, Colorado
5,441 posts, read 8,154,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Denver has neighborhood shopping areas, but no secondary downtown with the big skyscrapers, museums, major parks (well, there are a few big parks on the west side), etc.
I actually came in here just to list a few for Denver. There is no traditional 2nd Downtown but I'd say there are a few areas that could be considered a secondary business district in the city.

Cherry Creek is probably the best example of a 2nd business district in the city proper. It's a major employment center, many residential highrises, amazing shopping options, dense with good urban form, pretty good pedestrian traffic and the trails running along the creek with many park areas right behind the mall are really nice. It definitely feels like it could be the downtown of a smaller city.

DTC is more of an oversized office park and it's only partially in Denver, but it's a major center for employment as well. 2nd best skyline in the city with many highrises (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f0/c0...6d8fe48bfd.jpg), decent pedestian traffic in some areas (Only from 9-5), many residential units and good public transportation service.
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Old 05-09-2018, 03:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,013 posts, read 102,621,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezter View Post
I actually came in here just to list a few for Denver. There is no traditional 2nd Downtown but I'd say there are a few areas that could be considered a secondary business district in the city.

Cherry Creek is probably the best example of a 2nd business district in the city proper. It's a major employment center, many residential highrises, amazing shopping options, dense with good urban form, pretty good pedestrian traffic and the trails running along the creek with many park areas right behind the mall are really nice. It definitely feels like it could be the downtown of a smaller city.

DTC is more of an oversized office park and it's only partially in Denver, but it's a major center for employment as well. 2nd best skyline in the city with many highrises (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f0/c0...6d8fe48bfd.jpg), decent pedestian traffic in some areas (Only from 9-5), many residential units and good public transportation service.
You have some points, but there's still nothing like downtown.

I don't know if you've ever been to Pittsburgh. The Oakland section of the city really is a secondary downtown. In fact, I used to have a poster of Pittsburgh hanging on the wall and somebody not from there mentioned that. It's got the two universities, a couple major hospitals, museums, a big park and a botanical gardens. That said, I think the area around the U of Denver, especially Colorado Blvd. kind of looks like the U of Pittsburgh campus and Forbes Avenue in Pittsburgh.
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Old 05-09-2018, 03:39 PM
 
2,486 posts, read 2,860,956 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster View Post
I strongly disagree.. Oakland and UCity Philly are much more dense, and also much bigger in scope. A big part of a downtown is commerce. Oakland is the third largest commercial center in Pennsylvania - larger than DT Erie or Allentown or Harrisburg etc. And it is growing as well - its the hottest office market in Pittsburgh, there is no available space, and new projects are going up to create it. also has more high rise residential going up all over. UCity in Philly is also going gangbusters. Cleveland's version is much less dense and urban, and has much less commerce. even if its growing, its not catching up.
For one thing, there is no such thing, formally, as a "second downtown."
It's a subjective popularized term of art, so defining one is subjective, either personally or as whatever group is using it -- in this case the C-D General U.S. page users...

Secondly I'm not disagreeing that U.City and even Oakland are more dense -- I think U. Circle is probably closer to Oakland than U. City; but what I think you are judging is that the cities surrounding these areas are more dense -- certainly Philly is much denser than both Pittsburgh or Cleveland... My objection is your saying U.C. is not walkable/ped-friendly or residential. As I said, regarding the core commercial area along Euclid (esp at Mayfield Road), maybe you could have said that 10 years ago, when this area had a McDonald's and a few similar joints, a lot of surface parking and the older Commodore Hotel which was a seniors building... But now this area has been in-filled with mixed use development... and more (see below):

U. Circle uptown:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5103...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5093...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5092...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5095...7i13312!8i6656

The Little Italy main strip:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i13312!8i6656

at the rapid transit station:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i13312!8i6656


residential density:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5101...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5090...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5072...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5114...7i13312!8i6656

Some new housing:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5153...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5153...7i13312!8i6656

Last edited by TheProf; 05-09-2018 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 05-09-2018, 04:01 PM
 
2,486 posts, read 2,860,956 times
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btw, here's a 5-year-old article (with photos) about University Circle's Uptown development when it was in its infancy:

in the circle: is uptown development living up to expectations?
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:17 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,152 posts, read 23,676,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saybanana View Post
Los Angeles has a lot of secondary downtowns.

Koreatown (I think it is the largest with many highrises, businesses, great transit, nightlife, dense pop)
Hollywood (Hollywood studios are still in the area but scattered, but area is mostly tourism/hospitality focused)
Beverly Hills
West Hollywood
Long Beach
Pasadena
Glendale
Westwood
Santa Monica

These three are major employment centers but are not urban at all.

Century City (actually this is the most suburban office park of all)
Woodland Hills Warner Center (suburban office park)
El Segundo/LAX (suburban office park)
Since you’re including legally separate municipalities, the list should include Culver City which is a sizable employment center for the region.

Century City might have a lot of suburban office park design to it, but if I worked in Century City, then I definitely wouldn’t mind living in Century City without a car. It’s also going to see some pretty rapid changes in a very short amount of time.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:16 AM
 
5,958 posts, read 6,859,942 times
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Another difference I notice between University Circle and Oakland is how they tie into to the surrounding area. Oakland is complemented well by the surrounding neighborhoods and seems to serve the purpose of a downtown for almost the entire East End of Pittsburgh. University Circle instead seems to stand out in contrast to the surrounding neighborhoods of the East Side of Cleveland...aside from Little Italy (part of University Circle) and Fairfax (basically an extension of University Circle with the Cleveland Clinic's main campus).

Whatever vibrancy exists in University Circle drops off pretty sharply when you leave the area, where as Oakland blends into a sort of "Greater Oakland", with lots of people living in those surrounding East End neighborhoods working or going to school in Oakland. I suspect commuters to Oakland travel a shorter distance than commuters to University Circle and are also more likely to live within city limits.

This is part of a more general difference between Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has more middle class and even wealthy neighborhoods within city limits, and especially around Oakland. The same can't really be said about the City of Cleveland, especially not Cleveland's east side. On the other hand, there seems to be far less of a "city vs suburbs" dynamic in Cleveland than Pittsburgh.
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