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Old 05-10-2018, 01:53 PM
 
2,164 posts, read 1,460,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
For one thing, there is no such thing, formally, as a "second downtown."
It's a subjective popularized term of art, so defining one is subjective, either personally or as whatever group is using it -- in this case the C-D General U.S. page users...

Secondly I'm not disagreeing that U.City and even Oakland are more dense -- I think U. Circle is probably closer to Oakland than U. City; but what I think you are judging is that the cities surrounding these areas are more dense -- certainly Philly is much denser than both Pittsburgh or Cleveland... My objection is your saying U.C. is not walkable/ped-friendly or residential. As I said, regarding the core commercial area along Euclid (esp at Mayfield Road), maybe you could have said that 10 years ago, when this area had a McDonald's and a few similar joints, a lot of surface parking and the older Commodore Hotel which was a seniors building... But now this area has been in-filled with mixed use development... and more (see below):

U. Circle uptown:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5103...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5093...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5092...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5095...7i13312!8i6656

The Little Italy main strip:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i13312!8i6656

at the rapid transit station:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5086...7i13312!8i6656


residential density:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5101...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5090...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5072...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5114...7i13312!8i6656

Some new housing:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5153...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5153...7i13312!8i6656

Oh I didn't mean I don't think it's walkable, certainly the denser parts are. I just meant there really are only a few blocks there that look and feel like a downtown to me. and as you said that's subjective.

both University Circle and Oakland are walkable, looks like typical walk scores in U Circle are in the 80s in the central areas, and for Oakland in the 90s in the central areas. As density compared to Philly goes, yeah sure Philly as a whole is more dense, but Oakland is similar in density to the UCity area in Philly, and has more commercial activity than UCity. so to me that makes Oakland a bit more of a second downtown. and UCity's promiximity to Center City probably has a little to do with that too.

I do like seeing the new development links from the University Circle Cleveland, so post more if you have them. I will dig up a few for Oakland.
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Old 05-10-2018, 02:12 PM
 
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Here's a few new developments in Oakland. These are residential only. I know there was some other new office/hotel but not sure where to find good links at the moment..

New apts
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4373...8i6656!5m1!1e1

New hotel - not too crazy about the look
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4378...8i6656!5m1!1e1

I think this is student targeted residential, not brand new probably 2 years old or so
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4434...8i6656!5m1!1e1


this one is massive - 723 apartments. I think it's completed now or pretty close. good that it will have first floor retail.

https://www.massarocorporation.com/t...re-apartments/
https://www.apartmenthomeliving.com/...-15213-6195264
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4506...8i6656!5m1!1e1

Last edited by _Buster; 05-10-2018 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 05-10-2018, 05:55 PM
 
2,473 posts, read 2,855,770 times
Reputation: 2064
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster View Post
Here's a few new developments in Oakland. These are residential only. I know there was some other new office/hotel but not sure where to find good links at the moment..

New apts
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4373...8i6656!5m1!1e1

New hotel - not too crazy about the look
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4378...8i6656!5m1!1e1

I think this is student targeted residential, not brand new probably 2 years old or so
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4434...8i6656!5m1!1e1


this one is massive - 723 apartments. I think it's completed now or pretty close. good that it will have first floor retail.

https://www.massarocorporation.com/t...re-apartments/
https://www.apartmenthomeliving.com/...-15213-6195264
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4506...8i6656!5m1!1e1
Thanks, these links look nice... Yes, I know Oakland pretty well and, yes, it denser than UC overall. But Oakland has been urban for quite some time. UC, aside from nearby Little Italy, has only had pockets, until the latest building focusing on the new Uptown development which is pretty exciting...

... I was really hoping Pittsburgh's PAT transit would have extended a crosstown "T" LRT branch into Oakland. Apparently plans for a light or heavy rail (subway/elevated) line through Oakland and Squirrel Hill have existed since the early 1900s but sadly have never materialized. I guess PAT's latest plan is for BRT to Oakland, which is better than nothing, ... I guess. I know I've been in Oakland during rush hour and seen bus stops packed with commuters waiting and think, what a shame; what a huge missed opportunity for Pittsburgh.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
Thanks, these links look nice... Yes, I know Oakland pretty well and, yes, it denser than UC overall. But Oakland has been urban for quite some time. UC, aside from nearby Little Italy, has only had pockets, until the latest building focusing on the new Uptown development which is pretty exciting...

... I was really hoping Pittsburgh's PAT transit would have extended a crosstown "T" LRT branch into Oakland. Apparently plans for a light or heavy rail (subway/elevated) line through Oakland and Squirrel Hill have existed since the early 1900s but sadly have never materialized. I guess PAT's latest plan is for BRT to Oakland, which is better than nothing, ... I guess. I know I've been in Oakland during rush hour and seen bus stops packed with commuters waiting and think, what a shame; what a huge missed opportunity for Pittsburgh.
Yeah, it would be nice to have a T line going through there. But seems that it could never get approved without significant federal/state grants which just aren't being handed out much anymore. And they already got a grant not too long ago for the extension to the North Side, which they screwed up IMO, because they should have routed it deeper into the neighborhoods of the area. rather than staying on the edge. But the sports teams/ stadiums lobbyists won out.

Hopefully they can do the new BRT line right, and have it connect to a T station downtown directly, making it a multi-modal station and people would be a lot more likely to make heavier use of it. The thing that kind of frustrates me, is that the MLK East Busway already runs not too far north of Oakland, and it goes downtown. It is a dedicated roadway for buses only, so I would have thought they could run a spur line to connect to Oakland, and save time and money. but I think part of the goal of their chosen route through Uptown, was to ignite development in a blighted neighborhood.

How long ago was the RTA line that goes to University Circle built?
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Old 05-11-2018, 09:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster View Post
Yeah, it would be nice to have a T line going through there. But seems that it could never get approved without significant federal/state grants which just aren't being handed out much anymore. And they already got a grant not too long ago for the extension to the North Side, which they screwed up IMO, because they should have routed it deeper into the neighborhoods of the area. rather than staying on the edge. But the sports teams/ stadiums lobbyists won out.

Hopefully they can do the new BRT line right, and have it connect to a T station downtown directly, making it a multi-modal station and people would be a lot more likely to make heavier use of it. The thing that kind of frustrates me, is that the MLK East Busway already runs not too far north of Oakland, and it goes downtown. It is a dedicated roadway for buses only, so I would have thought they could run a spur line to connect to Oakland, and save time and money. but I think part of the goal of their chosen route through Uptown, was to ignite development in a blighted neighborhood.

How long ago was the RTA line that goes to University Circle built?
Answer: the Red Line was built to/through University Circle in 1955; 63 years ago... And really, the transit agency that built it (the old Cleveland Transit System) built this line on the foundations of a line that was partially built in the late 1920s!! Those builders (who built terminal tower and the Shaker Heights LRT) abandoned the rapid transit project because their business empire tanked as a result of the Depression. The "new" Little Italy-UC station was actually built inside a shell "vault" that was built in 1929... Bottom line, this service has been planned, built or in service for long, long time.

Yeah, I think the PAT's T line to North Side was a waste -- used by sports fans and a few bar-hoppers and casino gamblers ... I guess some commuters from North Side take advantage of the free service into downtown to avoid the hefty parking rates. If the North Side ultimately leads to an airport (or other long northern extension), then it would be worth it; but that's not happening... That $550B would have been much better spent on a 3-mile downtown-to-Oakland line; possibly extending it to Squirrel Hill at some point, although I realize the steep hill and heavy upper middle class neighborhood surroundings (necessitating subway construction) are pretty cost-prohibitive.

As for the MLK-East Busway... I wish PAT would lay T tracks into it where a ready-made right-of-way exists. It does pass north of Oakland, but it does directly serve popular/dense areas like Shadyside and East Liberty (where the massive Eastside Bond apt complex sits adjacent to the EL MLK station, with the even larger Bakery Square just 2 blocks away). There is even a connection existing with the now-unused T leg to Penn Station. There's also an existing freight spur which tunnels under much of Oakland but opens near the Pitt campus. I think, though, the tunnel is only for a single track... but this could be expanded. Expensive? Yes, but with the longer busway, the Penn Station direct connection to the downtown T subway and at least a single-track tunnel, most of the heavy lifting is already done.

Last edited by TheProf; 05-11-2018 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,416 posts, read 11,917,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
As for the MLK-East Busway... I wish PAT would lay T tracks into it where a ready-made right-of-way exists. It does pass north of Oakland, but it does directly serve popular/dense areas like Shadyside and East Liberty (where the massive Eastside Bond apt complex sits adjacent to the EL MLK station, with the even larger Bakery Square just 2 blocks away). There is even a connection existing with the now-unused T leg to Penn Station. There's also an existing freight spur which tunnels under much of Oakland but opens near the Pitt campus. I think, though, the tunnel is only for a single track... but this could be expanded. Expensive? Yes, but with the longer busway, the Penn Station direct connection to the downtown T subway and at least a single-track tunnel, most of the heavy lifting is already done.
There are still rail tracks underneath the East Busway, albeit not at the right gauge to take the T. IIRC, the reasons why it hasn't been converted are:

1. As you note, the now unused connection to the rest of the T system is only a single track.

2. The maximum speed of the T is slower than the busway, which means an "upgrade" would be a step down unless Pittsburgh moved to an entirely new system of cars.

3. Some local buses to the eastern suburbs use the busway to get into town quickly. If the T were rail, you'd need to build some sort of transfer station at its terminus.
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Old 05-12-2018, 07:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
There are still rail tracks underneath the East Busway, albeit not at the right gauge to take the T. IIRC, the reasons why it hasn't been converted are:

1. As you note, the now unused connection to the rest of the T system is only a single track.

2. The maximum speed of the T is slower than the busway, which means an "upgrade" would be a step down unless Pittsburgh moved to an entirely new system of cars.

3. Some local buses to the eastern suburbs use the busway to get into town quickly. If the T were rail, you'd need to build some sort of transfer station at its terminus.
What they need to do is find a way to connect the East and West Busways.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
What they need to do is find a way to connect the East and West Busways.
That would be nice, it would act almost like a full rail transit line running through a good portion of the urbanized area east to west. I don't know if that's ever been seriously explored. I suspect it has and would have required possibly another bridge, and the linkup through downtown would be problematic. I don't know if any of the existing streets could be repurposed for it without causing major traffic problems and problems for the businesses along the route.
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Old 05-13-2018, 09:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster View Post
That would be nice, it would act almost like a full rail transit line running through a good portion of the urbanized area east to west. I don't know if that's ever been seriously explored. I suspect it has and would have required possibly another bridge, and the linkup through downtown would be problematic. I don't know if any of the existing streets could be repurposed for it without causing major traffic problems and problems for the businesses along the route.
Could extend the east busway along the Railroad towards Downtown and do a mile or 2 of tunnel like Silver Line Way or the Seattle Bus Tunnel
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:24 AM
 
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The Downtown Pittsburgh - Oakland BRT new plan is out, and it does look like there is some kind of transfer center at Steel Plaza T station. Hopefully very close to the rail platforms.

Also, there are actually 5 branches of this to go further east from Oakland, and one of them does utilize the busway, while the others fan out through neighborhoods. Looks like it could be a pretty good addition to the system. It's fairly extensive, it has 81 stations planned, with 8 miles of dedicated lanes.

http://portauthority.org/paac/portals/0/brt/webppt.pdf
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