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Old 05-15-2017, 11:53 PM
 
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The definition of a center city has more to do with the location of the regional core (DTSF), and has little do do with how the various administrative district boundaries are organized.

If city limits were moved in or out tomorrow, would that change how the metro functions or the heirarchy of its parts? Not really.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,346 posts, read 55,148,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
Tacoma is sorta like Oakland but located like San Jose. (Bellevue is sorta like San Jose but located like Oakland.) At that distance it doesn't function like Oakland.

It's a much nicer city than it used to be. Being from Seattle I've gone down as a tourist for the day a few times. Good waterfront, a lot of great places to eat (or what looked to be, as I've only tried a few), solid museum district, phenomenal UWT campus that's mostly in old buildings, a growing residential base, a much closer view of Mt. Rainier than from Seattle (20 miles closer?). You can get an express bus to Downtown Seattle every few minutes at rush hour, or a Sounder or Amtrak train at certain times. And the pulp mills are gone, meaning decent air finally.

It needs more growth, which is happening. Keep infilling those close-in lots, which still show signs of its Great Lakes type post-industrial emptying out despite a lot of reversal in the past 20 years or so.

I'd live there if I was priced out of Seattle and had a job nearby. It's a legit idea for an affordable urban retirement in the Puget Sound area.
Been there several times and I was just in Seattle, Tacoma and Bellevue again last week.

San Jose isnt reminiscient of Bellevue at all imo-not even demographically. I dont even get that comparison.

And Oakland and Tacoma likewise have only a few anecdotal similarities.

Oakland is a 10-minute subway ride from Downtown SF and is vibrant and agitated in its own right-the urban core of the East Bay is more urban imo than any urban environment on the West Coast except LA and SF themselves. Tacoma otoh is 30+ miles removed from Seattle proper and is quite sleepy vs Oakland.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
1,090 posts, read 1,070,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Been there several times and I was just in Seattle, Tacoma and Bellevue again last week.

San Jose isnt reminiscient of Bellevue at all imo-not even demographically. I dont even get that comparison.

And Oakland and Tacoma likewise have only a few anecdotal similarities.

Oakland is a 10-minute subway ride from Downtown SF and is vibrant and agitated in its own right-the urban core of the East Bay is more urban imo than any urban environment on the West Coast except LA and SF themselves. Tacoma otoh is 30+ miles removed from Seattle proper and is quite sleepy vs Oakland.
You're getting hung up on the details, but people often draw comparisons between Tacoma and Oakland, and mhays25 was actually explaining the differences. He was simply pointing out, as opposed to the Bay Area, that in the Puget Sound area the new, booming tech hub is the distance of Oakland from Seattle and the #2 industrial city is actually the distance of San Jose from Seattle. Using the word "sorta" implies that the comparison is vague and conceptual, not exact and literal.

In terms of the comparison between Oakland and Tacoma, though, it's tough not to see some similarities. Until fairly recently, Oaktown was generally viewed as a somewhat dangerous, industrial port town, so don't act like it's always been San Francisco. Tacoma has also been seen in the same light but has changed as of late- hence the thread.

So relax. No one on here is claiming that the scale of the Seattle area rivals the Bay Area- or will ever challenge the area for the crown of "most urban on the west coast." They're simply saying that they're somewhat analogous to one another.

Last edited by bartonizer; 05-16-2017 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,346 posts, read 55,148,798 times
Reputation: 15420
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonizer View Post
You're getting hung up on the details, but people often draw comparisons between Tacoma and Oakland, and mhays25 was actually explaining the differences. He was simply pointing out, as opposed to the Bay Area, that in the Puget Sound area the new, booming tech hub is the distance of Oakland from Seattle and the #2 industrial city is actually the distance of San Jose from Seattle. Using the word "sorta" implies that the comparison is vague and conceptual, not exact and literal.

In terms of the comparison between Oakland and Tacoma, though, it's tough not to see some similarities. Until fairly recently, Oaktown was generally viewed as a somewhat dangerous, industrial port town, so don't act like it's always been San Francisco. Tacoma has also been seen in the same light but has changed as of late- hence the thread.

So relax. No one on here is claiming that the scale of the Seattle area rivals the Bay Area- or will ever challenge the area for the crown of "most urban on the west coast." They're simply saying that they're somewhat analogous to one another.
No hangs up here...I just reject the often made statement that Tacoma is more or less Seattle's Oakland...that's implausible from 30 miles away...it's more like Seattle's Long Beach.

And I could care less about similarities as far as perceptions of crime and grit. Oakland's own urban area which includes Berkeley is much more of a hub of vibrancy. Like I said, Tacoma is too far away and too quaint to be likened to the East Bay imo.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
1,090 posts, read 1,070,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
No hangs up here...I just reject the often made statement that Tacoma is more or less Seattle's Oakland...that's implausible from 30 miles away...it's more like Seattle's Long Beach.

And I could care less about similarities as far as perceptions of crime and grit. Oakland's own urban area which includes Berkeley is much more of a hub of vibrancy. Like I said, Tacoma is too far away and too quaint to be likened to the East Bay imo.
Lol, okay. Again, no one is saying it's the same exact thing, or even close. The OP said verbatim "Tacoma is sorta like Oakland but located like San Jose. (Bellevue is sorta like San Jose but located like Oakland.) At that distance it doesn't function like Oakland." Tough to argue with such vague generalizations that pretty much agree with you.

I can clearly remember visiting family in SF and Alameda when I was younger and Oakland was clearly a no-go area, regarded as a blight in the middle of the Bay Area. Many people still feel that way. Of course, it had some counterculture, especially with Berkeley so close, but much of the gentrification and "vibrancy" within Oakland itself started occurring rapidly when people were completely priced out of SF itself.

Again, no one is claiming that they're on the same scale. But to say that Tacoma is quaint or that it's Seattle's Long Beach is just silly. Tacoma has a long history of being among the largest cities in the state and the gritty #2 anchor city of the southern part of the same metro area as Seattle. And there is definitely such a thing as North Sound and South Sound urban areas within the metro, but there's no break in development and they're 30 miles away not 400. Like Oakland, Tacoma was a port city and western terminus of the transcontinental railroad. And like Oakland, it had a bad reputation but was located next to another hub of activity (Olympia) and started received a spillover and renewal when other people in the main city were priced out. Plenty of people still commute between the two cities, even though the area is congested.

Even though it has a new, impressive skyline, Bellevue is much more of a suburban-style city and emerged as a tech hub, a la San Jose. And as the OP points out, distance-wise those parallels are switched with San Jose and Oakland switched in the Puget Sound Metro. Case in point light rail will (relatively) soon connect Bellevue with downtown Seattle (10 miles) while commuter rail connects Tacoma with Seattle.

So yeah, there are obviously differences. But don't be ridiculous and suggest that comparisons can't be drawn, or that Tacoma can't look to the Bay Area for some guidance as to how things may develop.

Last edited by bartonizer; 05-17-2017 at 06:46 AM..
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,346 posts, read 55,148,798 times
Reputation: 15420
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonizer View Post
Lol, okay. Again, no one is saying it's the same exact thing, or even close. The OP said verbatim "Tacoma is sorta like Oakland but located like San Jose. (Bellevue is sorta like San Jose but located like Oakland.) At that distance it doesn't function like Oakland." Tough to argue with such vague generalizations that pretty much agree with you.
This^ is ridiculous.

San Jose is the 10th largest US city with 1 million people is the hub of a Metro Area of 2 million people spread out over a large valley.

Compared to SJ, Bellevue is a small town with tall buildings.

Quote:
I can clearly remember visiting family in SF and Alameda when I was younger and Oakland was clearly a no-go area, regarded as a blight in the middle of the Bay Area. Many people still feel that way. Of course, it had some counterculture, especially with Berkeley so close, but much of the gentrification and "vibrancy" within Oakland itself started occurring rapidly when people were completely priced out of SF itself.
Wrong. The current influx of hipsters and techies is adding to vibrancy that already exists. Oakland's chinatown is the busiest urban neighborhood in the Bay Area outside of SF and has been for as long as it has existed.

Oakland has lots of pleasant, walkable, vibrant neighborhoods and many are quite upscale and that all preceded the current infusion of SF housing refugees.

As far as no-go areas,
http://www.city-data.com/forum/45817843-post393.html

And I have a question for you: Do you think youre educating ME about where I live? Really? LOL

Quote:
So yeah, there are obviously differences. But don't be ridiculous and suggest that comparisons can't be drawn, or that Tacoma can't look to the Bay Area for some guidance as to how things may develop.
These similarities are anecdotal and Tacoma-Olympia is akin to Oakland-Berkeley?????

LOL
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle
565 posts, read 563,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
This^ is ridiculous.

San Jose is the 10th largest US city with 1 million people is the hub of a Metro Area of 2 million people spread out over a large valley.

Compared to SJ, Bellevue is a small town with tall buildings.


Wrong. The current influx of hipsters and techies is adding to vibrancy that already exists. Oakland's chinatown is the busiest urban neighborhood in the Bay Area outside of SF and has been for as long as it has existed.

Oakland has lots of pleasant, walkable, vibrant neighborhoods and many are quite upscale and that all preceded the current infusion of SF housing refugees.

As far as no-go areas,
http://www.city-data.com/forum/45817843-post393.html

And I have a question for you: Do you think youre educating ME about where I live? Really? LOL


These similarities are anecdotal and Tacoma-Olympia is akin to Oakland-Berkeley?????

LOL
Puget Sound is not to the scale of the Bay Area. Distance between cities does play a factor, you're right. However, I am able to find more similarities than differences.

Actually Tacoma-Olympia, despite the distance, does share a similar role as Oakland-Berkeley. Olympia is home to Evergreen State College and a large counter culture movement. The distance between the two makes the cities much less connected than Oakland-Berkeley but ties can certainly be drawn.

Culturally, I think that Tacoma has more similarities to Oakland (Portland as well) than Seattle. It's become an affordable place for artists to live and has made the city an interesting place to be. Large underground music scene, great nightlife, funky people. It has still maintained its diversity and affordability, but there is a major housing shortage, and the developments being built are clearly not for the residents. I think Tacoma could definitely look to Oakland as a model to see what has been successful for them as far as sustainable development goes. And even though not identical, I can't think of a more similar city to Tacoma.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
1,090 posts, read 1,070,249 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
This^ is ridiculous.

San Jose is the 10th largest US city with 1 million people is the hub of a Metro Area of 2 million people spread out over a large valley.

Compared to SJ, Bellevue is a small town with tall buildings.


Wrong. The current influx of hipsters and techies is adding to vibrancy that already exists. Oakland's chinatown is the busiest urban neighborhood in the Bay Area outside of SF and has been for as long as it has existed.

Oakland has lots of pleasant, walkable, vibrant neighborhoods and many are quite upscale and that all preceded the current infusion of SF housing refugees.

As far as no-go areas,
http://www.city-data.com/forum/45817843-post393.html

And I have a question for you: Do you think youre educating ME about where I live? Really? LOL


These similarities are anecdotal and Tacoma-Olympia is akin to Oakland-Berkeley?????

LOL
Likewise, did you think you'd educate ME about Puget Sound? Just as funny kiddo.

But other people understood what I meant, even if you just joined the thread to pooh-pooh the comparison or just want to be a homer for Oakland/make fun of Tacoma. So, thanks for the link- but I'm aware that Oakland had nice neighborhoods prior to recent gentrification. Likewise, Tacoma had grand, historic old neighborhoods that housed railroad tycoons and lumber barons. Here's a few for you- knock yourself out- some of them are even BIGGER than the Oakland house pics that you posted, lol!! https://www.google.com/search?q=taco...w=1920&bih=974 But seriously, this isn't a competition, and it doesn't change the fact that both cities have seen a general resurgence as of late....

For the third time (please try to pay attention), no one on this thread is saying that the Seattle Metro is anywhere near the size, scale or level or urbanity of the Bay Area, or that Tacoma is related to Seattle in the exact same way as SF is to Oakland. But, as blaserbrad just pointed out, along with others, there are certain clear similarities that many people can see between Oakland and Tacoma. You do realize that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? Great, then understand that it's actually fairly complimentary in saying that Tacoma can certainly draw upon Oakland as an inspiration for future development.

Let it go....

Last edited by bartonizer; 05-17-2017 at 11:20 AM..
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,346 posts, read 55,148,798 times
Reputation: 15420
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonizer View Post
Likewise, did you think you'd educate ME about Puget Sound? Just as funny, kiddo.

But other people understood what I meant, even if you just joined the thread to pooh-pooh the comparison or just want to be a homer for Oakland/make fun of Tacoma.

For the third time (please try to pay attention), no one on this thread is saying that the Seattle Metro is anywhere near the size, scale or level or urbanity of the Bay Area, or that Tacoma is related to Seattle in the exact same way as SF is to Oakland. But, as blaserbrad just pointed out, and as others have pointed out on this thread, there are certain similarities that many people can see between Oakland and Tacoma, and Tacoma can certainly draw upon Oakland as an inspiration for future development.
Never said a single negative thing about Tacoma-only that it's quaint( which isnt really a bad thing per se)

And Olympia is 30 miles from Tacoma. Just stop.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Washington State desert
5,542 posts, read 3,690,388 times
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I think the main point here is that Tacoma is not the crime-ridden, (hate to say, ghetto), that it was in the 80's. The "Cops" series loved Tacoma back then, but don't come back very often these days. Because Tacoma has become a nice alternative urban city that is less expensive than Seattle. Are there still some bad areas? Of course, as there are in Oakland. But as Oakland has become more livable, so has Tacoma. Commuting is terrible between Tacoma and Seattle, but someday light rail will connect the two, not that is the ultimate answer.

Last edited by pnwguy2; 05-17-2017 at 07:14 PM..
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