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Old 05-21-2017, 02:52 AM
 
1,586 posts, read 1,542,286 times
Reputation: 2356

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalentedDrinker View Post
That's revisionist history. Before 2004 was 86 years of failure and nobody cared outside of New England. It was also pre-social media age. Fenway Park is a dump. I grew up playing baseball and have been to more than half of the league ballparks. Never thought Fenway was a must see. It's become one now because it's just old.

There is no history of winning there. That's what creates magical stadiums or must-see parks. Old Yankee Stadium was the "Cathedral of Baseball" for a reason. Countless World Series championships won there. The greatest ballplayers. Fenway Park's relevance started in 2004, at the height of the Yankees-Red Sox (now dead) rivalry.
The revisionist history is all yours. You're saying that my dad didn't pay $50 a pop for the worst seats in the house in something like 1993 because some meaningless game in the middle of the summer was sold out? By the way, my whole family was excited to go to a game at Fenway. We weren't from New England.

You must be a Yankee fan. You know how I know? Yankee fans are the only baseball fans who hold up winning as the only important thing in baseball. We all know all sports are ultimately about winning, but at least in baseball, it's only the Yankees who hold up winning as the only thing of substance a team can possibly do for its fans. This is somewhat unique in baseball, as of all major American sports, baseball is the one where it's really most about the journey rather than the destination. After all, there are 162 games in a season -- you'd better be invested in the journey.

I've heard this attitude from Yankee fans many times, but I'll give you credit: You're the first I've seen take it to the extreme that a ballpark's charm and sense of nostalgia can't exist without a Yankee-esque tradition of world championships.

If I had been drinking something, I might have done a spit take at the suggestion that the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry is "now dead." In fact, it's so alive that it's still the reason you hate New England!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalentedDrinker View Post
Bill Russell is the greatest sports figure in Boston history and he was never accepted because he was black. Wonderful job there.
May I concern troll you for a moment? Comments like this make me dismiss everything else you have to say. When you're arguing against the merits of a building, and then you can't resist adding "and they're all a bunch of racists," it makes people think you have some ulterior motive beyond your feelings about the building.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:53 AM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
I despise their teams but it's probably Philadelphia. They take sports so seriously, they'll get violent over it, as their reputation indicates (while it's obviously not the only city with violent fans, it's got the most high-profile incidents throughout history and in recent memory).

I would put the big four all on a level about the same (big four being Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Boston), but Philadelphia has the least championships out of all of them (one championship since 1984, the 2008 Phillies, now compare that to the others). Their teams are actually always competitive, but never get over the hump of actually winning.

Philadelphia doesn't have titles to bandwagon over, like the other cities do (cough cough Blackhawks/Cubs/Patriots/Celtics/Bruins cough cough), but they continue to sell out.

Look at the NFL Draft this year. 250,000 people attended it in Philadelphia. They're ridiculous. I know people that have all four Philly teams tattooed on their body, and the only team with a recent title is the Phillies. It's purely insane.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:22 AM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
Championships in bold since 1980:

Chicago is 12 for 13.

Bears - 1985, 2006
Bulls - 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
White Sox - 2005
Blackhawks - 2010, 2013, 2015
Cubs - 2016

New York is 13 for 29.

Giants - 1986, 1990, 2001, 2007, 2011
Jets - none
Yankees - 1981, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2009
Mets - 1986, 2000, 2015
Knicks - 1994, 1999
Nets - 2002, 2003
Rangers - 1994, 2014
Islanders - 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983
Devils - 1995, 2000, 2001, 2003

Philadelphia is 3 for 16.

Phillies - 1980, 1983, 1993, 2008, 2009
Eagles - 1981, 2004
Flyers - 1980, 1985, 1987, 1997, 2010
Sixers - 1980, 1982, 1983, 2001

Boston is 13 for 24

Patriots - 1986, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014, 2016
Bruins - 1988, 1990, 2011, 2013
Celtics - 1981, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 2008, 2010
Red Sox - 1986, 2004, 2007, 2013

Philadelphia still sells out despite not coming close to the success of its peers. And they're usually always competitive too. Pretty consistent by decade.

Boston had a really rough stretch in the 1990s with barely any appearances. Most of Boston's success has come post-2000, so it's a very recent thing.

Chicago had dynasties in the 1990s and 2010s.

New York is the most consistent in appearances by decade.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:53 AM
 
9,384 posts, read 9,546,239 times
Reputation: 5786
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulevardofdef View Post
The revisionist history is all yours. You're saying that my dad didn't pay $50 a pop for the worst seats in the house in something like 1993 because some meaningless game in the middle of the summer was sold out? By the way, my whole family was excited to go to a game at Fenway. We weren't from New England.

You must be a Yankee fan. You know how I know? Yankee fans are the only baseball fans who hold up winning as the only important thing in baseball. We all know all sports are ultimately about winning, but at least in baseball, it's only the Yankees who hold up winning as the only thing of substance a team can possibly do for its fans. This is somewhat unique in baseball, as of all major American sports, baseball is the one where it's really most about the journey rather than the destination. After all, there are 162 games in a season -- you'd better be invested in the journey.

I've heard this attitude from Yankee fans many times, but I'll give you credit: You're the first I've seen take it to the extreme that a ballpark's charm and sense of nostalgia can't exist without a Yankee-esque tradition of world championships.

If I had been drinking something, I might have done a spit take at the suggestion that the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry is "now dead." In fact, it's so alive that it's still the reason you hate New England!

May I concern troll you for a moment? Comments like this make me dismiss everything else you have to say. When you're arguing against the merits of a building, and then you can't resist adding "and they're all a bunch of racists," it makes people think you have some ulterior motive beyond your feelings about the building.
Fenway is much more beloved than Yankee Staduim it's not even close. In the 90s/early 2000s the fans, and even the Mayor and Governors mobilized to stop the Red Sox from getting a new Staduim and stay st Fenway. While New Yorkers let the Yankees bulldoze 80 years of tradition.

MSG is revered in the NBA and NHL and the Rangers and knicks are largely trash.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland area
277 posts, read 98,833 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalentedDrinker View Post
Championships in bold since 1980:

Chicago is 12 for 13.

Bears - 1985, 2006
Bulls - 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
White Sox - 2005
Blackhawks - 2010, 2013, 2015
Cubs - 2016

New York is 13 for 29.

Giants - 1986, 1990, 2001, 2007, 2011
Jets - none
Yankees - 1981, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2009
Mets - 1986, 2000, 2015
Knicks - 1994, 1999
Nets - 2002, 2003
Rangers - 1994, 2014
Islanders - 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983
Devils - 1995, 2000, 2001, 2003

Philadelphia is 3 for 16.

Phillies - 1980, 1983, 1993, 2008, 2009
Eagles - 1981, 2004
Flyers - 1980, 1985, 1987, 1997, 2010
Sixers - 1980, 1982, 1983, 2001

Boston is 13 for 24

Patriots - 1986, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014, 2016
Bruins - 1988, 1990, 2011, 2013
Celtics - 1981, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 2008, 2010
Red Sox - 1986, 2004, 2007, 2013

Philadelphia still sells out despite not coming close to the success of its peers. And they're usually always competitive too. Pretty consistent by decade.

Boston had a really rough stretch in the 1990s with barely any appearances. Most of Boston's success has come post-2000, so it's a very recent thing.

Chicago had dynasties in the 1990s and 2010s.

New York is the most consistent in appearances by decade.
Looks ok, but islanders won 4 Stanley cups.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:29 PM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysByChance View Post
Looks ok, but islanders won 4 Stanley cups.
Thanks for pointing that out. I definitely knew about them because I only follow hockey, but it was just a lot of work to do it and probably forgot.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:33 PM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Fenway is much more beloved than Yankee Staduim it's not even close. In the 90s/early 2000s the fans, and even the Mayor and Governors mobilized to stop the Red Sox from getting a new Staduim and stay st Fenway. While New Yorkers let the Yankees bulldoze 80 years of tradition.

MSG is revered in the NBA and NHL and the Rangers and knicks are largely trash.

It's a good thing this is the internet and names are anonymous, because I would be embarrassed to show your face if I were you.

Fenway is not more beloved than Old Yankee Stadium. That's just laughable.

You are a living embodiment of why Boston is so overrated, because you stop at literally nothing to boost it.

Honestly, your delusions would work well in the White House.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:53 PM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulevardofdef View Post
The revisionist history is all yours. You're saying that my dad didn't pay $50 a pop for the worst seats in the house in something like 1993 because some meaningless game in the middle of the summer was sold out? By the way, my whole family was excited to go to a game at Fenway. We weren't from New England.

You must be a Yankee fan. You know how I know? Yankee fans are the only baseball fans who hold up winning as the only important thing in baseball. We all know all sports are ultimately about winning, but at least in baseball, it's only the Yankees who hold up winning as the only thing of substance a team can possibly do for its fans. This is somewhat unique in baseball, as of all major American sports, baseball is the one where it's really most about the journey rather than the destination. After all, there are 162 games in a season -- you'd better be invested in the journey.

I've heard this attitude from Yankee fans many times, but I'll give you credit: You're the first I've seen take it to the extreme that a ballpark's charm and sense of nostalgia can't exist without a Yankee-esque tradition of world championships.

If I had been drinking something, I might have done a spit take at the suggestion that the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry is "now dead." In fact, it's so alive that it's still the reason you hate New England!

May I concern troll you for a moment? Comments like this make me dismiss everything else you have to say. When you're arguing against the merits of a building, and then you can't resist adding "and they're all a bunch of racists," it makes people think you have some ulterior motive beyond your feelings about the building.

Pretty sure I've posted numerous times that I only follow hockey, but sure, keep going with the baseball rant. Hockey is about the journey, not the destination. Not baseball. The Stanley Cup is the toughest trophy to win, in sports. You have that confused.

Yankees-Red Sox rivalry is alive and well? Really?

New York Yankees-Boston Red Sox Rivalry Is Dead

Red Sox-Yankees rivalry dead: How to fix - SweetSpot- ESPN

Big Papi homers after saying Yankees-Red Sox rivalry all but dead | New York Post

Yankees-Red Sox: Where Did the Rivalry Go? | WPIE-AM

The Yankees - Red Sox Rivalry Is Dead - Last Word on Sports

https://www.todaysknuckleball.com/al...nkees-rivalry/


Baseball is overrated and incredibly boring. Which is perfect for a city like Boston. No wonder.

Winning is the only important thing in sports, glad you understand that.

Old Montreal Forum. Old Yankee Stadium. Lambeau Field. All of these stadiums have something in common. They housed winning teams. They're built on success. The story is told through winning. Greatest games.

Due to the Yankees' frequent appearances in the World Series, Yankee Stadium played host to 161 postseason games, more than any other stadium in baseball history. The Stadium hosted 37 of the 83 possible World Series during its existence, with the Yankees winning 26 of them. In total, the venue hosted 100 World Series games. 16 of the 17 World Series won in the Bronx were clinched there.

Many memorable and historic games have been played at Yankee Stadium. All three perfect games thrown by Yankee pitchers have occurred at the Stadium as well as homeruns.

I mean, come on. It's not called "The Cathedral of Baseball" for nothing. But by all means, continue glorifying a dump that housed losing Red Sox teams for 86 years. What tradition!

Packers. Canadiens. Yankees. Red Sox.

One of these is not like the others.

Fenway Park is a novelty because it's old. That's it. If Paul McCartney died, Ringo would be a novelty because he's the only one left. Is he the best Beatle? Far from it. Same concept.

The owners are cashing in on the novelty, while popular opinion suggests they should move on from it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...DvI/story.html

When you're replacing stupid **** like this, I think it's time to just get a new ballpark. If it's so sacred, they wouldn't be putting lipstick on a pig.

Red Sox To Replace Pesky’s Pole, Make Other Fenway Park Changes Before 2017 Season | Boston Red Sox | NESN.com

They will replace it eventually. They're still just going to milk the last decade dry, first.

http://www.espn.com/boston/mlb/story...xpiration-date

Other teams like the Cubs realize they need to modernize. The Yankees rely on championships to market their team, not an outdated ballpark.

By the way, Shibe Park was built in 1909, which was the first steel and concrete ballpark in history, before Fenway and Wrigley. It was also the inspiration for the facade at Fenway as well. Thank Philadelphia (another city that has learned to move on from an outdated stadium).

Didn't stop TD Garden and Gillette from being built.

Last edited by TalentedDrinker; 05-21-2017 at 02:03 PM..
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Albany, NY
51 posts, read 53,471 times
Reputation: 67
Sports is not "all about winning," nor is victory what makes a stadium memorable. Having been fortunate enough to have attended many games at both Fenway Park and the old Yankee Stadium, I can attest that the feeling one gets when there does/did not solely come from the championships won but also from the moments that happened there, which is the very essence of sport. Boston may have won exactly zero championships between 1918 and 2004, bur is it possible to go to Fenway Park and not remember Enos Slaughter's "mad dash" in the 1946 World Series, or the heroic efforts of Jim Lonborg in '67? Or the madness in '86? One might even argue that stadia are baptized by suffering, not by success, if one were to take a slightly Jesuit approach to the thing. And I would submit that Fenway and the old Stadium were equally beloved in their respective communities, although Fenway may have seemed more so to outsiders because of the famous "curse" and Boston's smaller metropolitan si

I do agree, however, that stadium age does not confer respectability on a team in itself. It's true that Philadelphia's teams (particularly the A's, who moved away from the city long ago) were in Shibe Park in years past and have had several stadia since. There are probably few Pittsburgh fans who remember Forbes Field, and not many St. Louis fans are still around who attended games at Sportsman's Park. But those teams are still among the elder statesmen in their respective leagues.
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:12 PM
 
149 posts, read 93,863 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by caravan70 View Post
Sports is not "all about winning," nor is victory what makes a stadium memorable. Having been fortunate enough to have attended many games at both Fenway Park and the old Yankee Stadium, I can attest that the feeling one gets when there does/did not solely come from the championships won but also from the moments that happened there, which is the very essence of sport. Boston may have won exactly zero championships between 1918 and 2004, bur is it possible to go to Fenway Park and not remember Enos Slaughter's "mad dash" in the 1946 World Series, or the heroic efforts of Jim Lonborg in '67? Or the madness in '86? One might even argue that stadia are baptized by suffering, not by success, if one were to take a slightly Jesuit approach to the thing. And I would submit that Fenway and the old Stadium were equally beloved in their respective communities, although Fenway may have seemed more so to outsiders because of the famous "curse" and Boston's smaller metropolitan si

I do agree, however, that stadium age does not confer respectability on a team in itself. It's true that Philadelphia's teams (particularly the A's, who moved away from the city long ago) were in Shibe Park in years past and have had several stadia since. There are probably few Pittsburgh fans who remember Forbes Field, and not many St. Louis fans are still around who attended games at Sportsman's Park. But those teams are still among the elder statesmen in their respective leagues.

Ah yes, who can forget the "mad dash" from 71 ****ing years ago? Brilliant. My guess? 90% of the people dumb enough to pay exorbitant prices to sit in an outdated ballpark. Especially Millennials.

Real fans can't afford the games. It's happening in every sport. It's happening to me. I would like to be a season ticket holder to the Rangers at MSG. Not happening. Ever. My team has one championship in 77 years. You really think I know anything about their 1940 Stanley Cup championship? Or care? It's so ridiculously long ago, there is no context to it in modern day.

Per Wikipedia:
Quote:
Fenway Park has historically drawn low attendance, its lowest occurring late in the 1965 season with two games having paid attendance under 500 spectators. Its attendance has risen since the Red Sox' 1967 "Impossible Dream" season, and on September 8, 2008, with a game versus the Tampa Bay Rays, Fenway Park broke the all-time Major League record for consecutive sellouts with 456, surpassing the record previously held by Jacobs Field in Cleveland. On Wednesday, June 17, 2009, the park celebrated its 500th consecutive Red Sox sellout. According to WBZ-TV, the team joined three NBA teams which achieved 500 consecutive home sellouts. The sellout streak ended on April 11, 2013; in all the Red Sox sold out 794 regular season games and an additional 26 postseason games during this streak.
1) Fenway Park has historically drawn low attendance. Interesting.

2) It's not a coincidence that the sellout streak came after their 86-year curse was broken. Two more titles followed.

3) Fenway's claim to fame then was a 1986 blunder. What tradition! The Curse of the Bambino wasn't even popularized until this happened. Any talk of a curse was non-existent from the 1920's to 1970's.

Lots of revisionist history going on. The Boston Red Sox are a 2004-present phenomenon. The Curse was not popularized until 1986 when they blew the World Series. Fenway Park had historically bad attendance until the late 60's.

Winning three titles in the social media age. Let's not forget that.

History comes from winning. Losing hardens the fanbase, but who actually glorifies losing teams? Who is glorifying the 1986 Red Sox? More like vilified.
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