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Old 06-03-2017, 05:21 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,483 posts, read 2,222,000 times
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Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Saint Louis, MO
Any particular reason why?
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:18 PM
 
226 posts, read 207,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
Saint Louis, MO
Yes crime and destruction....Dead with no future. The wealthy separated from the poor and a radical and aggressive police force.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:16 PM
 
124 posts, read 97,215 times
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Originally Posted by Scout0417 View Post
Yes crime and destruction....Dead with no future. The wealthy separated from the poor and a radical and aggressive police force.
You don't know anything about St. Louis.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:50 PM
 
1,987 posts, read 1,234,516 times
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Originally Posted by newengland17 View Post
You don't know anything about St. Louis.
I think he summed it up quite well. If you want rowhouses with character, why would you choose St. Louis over Baltimore or Philly? Sorry, in Missouri Kansas City owns it.
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Old 06-03-2017, 11:24 PM
 
124 posts, read 97,215 times
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Originally Posted by DTXman34 View Post
I think he summed it up quite well. If you want rowhouses with character, why would you choose St. Louis over Baltimore or Philly? Sorry, in Missouri Kansas City owns it.
You also know nothing about St. Louis.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:09 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout0417 View Post
Yes crime and destruction....Dead with no future. The wealthy separated from the poor and a radical and aggressive police force.
You'll need to pick one. The city has crime and destruction on the north side, but it wasn't the city's police force that mishandled Ferguson. That belongs to Ferguson's own police force and the larger St. Louis County Police Department.

As for no future, someone must have neglected to tell the city. The population loss has slowed to trickle in comparison to previous decades, neighborhood after neighborhood is revitalizing, the central corridor is going through a construction boom, the city has a growing tech scene, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTXman34 View Post
I think he summed it up quite well. If you want rowhouses with character, why would you choose St. Louis over Baltimore or Philly? Sorry, in Missouri Kansas City owns it.
St. Louis isn't dominated by rowhouses, even if it does have a quite a lot of them by Midwestern standards, and Baltimore has more than its own fair share of problems that are virtually identical to St. Louis'. As for KC, it still has the smaller GDP, the less prestigious universities, the smaller metro area with less residents living in the state of Missouri, etc. KCMO annexed itself to the point that it now has a larger land area, not counting water areas, than both Chicago and New York City. What KCMO lacks in its metro is something the size of St. Louis County, which is the largest in the state of Missouri and the state's primary economic engine. Due to that, St. Louis remains the face of Missouri much to KCMO's chagrin.

KCMO has certainly narrowed what had once been a considerable gap, but it hasn't closed it. Metro St. Louis would have to continue down a stagnant path for years more and KCMO would have to continue booming for years more before that gap is closed. It hasn't gotten there yet.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:02 AM
 
Location: 32°19'03.7"N 106°43'55.9"W
8,114 posts, read 17,319,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
You'll need to pick one. The city has crime and destruction on the north side, but it wasn't the city's police force that mishandled Ferguson. That belongs to Ferguson's own police force and the larger St. Louis County Police Department.

As for no future, someone must have neglected to tell the city. The population loss has slowed to trickle in comparison to previous decades, neighborhood after neighborhood is revitalizing, the central corridor is going through a construction boom, the city has a growing tech scene, etc.



St. Louis isn't dominated by rowhouses, even if it does have a quite a lot of them by Midwestern standards, and Baltimore has more than its own fair share of problems that are virtually identical to St. Louis'. As for KC, it still has the smaller GDP, the less prestigious universities, the smaller metro area with less residents living in the state of Missouri, etc. KCMO annexed itself to the point that it now has a larger land area, not counting water areas, than both Chicago and New York City. What KCMO lacks in its metro is something the size of St. Louis County, which is the largest in the state of Missouri and the state's primary economic engine. Due to that, St. Louis remains the face of Missouri much to KCMO's chagrin.

KCMO has certainly narrowed what had once been a considerable gap, but it hasn't closed it. Metro St. Louis would have to continue down a stagnant path for years more and KCMO would have to continue booming for years more before that gap is closed. It hasn't gotten there yet.
With that said, a lot of St. Louis metro area in my opinion is very underwhelming on the St. Clair County Illinois side, relative to St. Louis County proper. In my experience, the wealth in the St. Louis metro is concentrated in about 5 significant suburbs, Clayton (more of an exurb or edge city on its own), Ladue, Webster Groves, Kirkwood and Chesterfield. If you drive up Hanley Road from the center of Clayton, within 2 miles you will be in one of the most destitute areas of University City you have ever seen. Similarly, in the city proper, you have the "Delmar Divide", much like Troost Street in KCMO, where you have one of the most pronounced one street instantaneous changes in character in any metro I have seen.


With that said, I have been in a lot of major metros, and what I am writing here about instant shifts in neighborhood safety are not that uncommon. My observation with St. Louis is that there is not as much concentrated wealth within the MSA as I have seen in other MSAs.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:58 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
With that said, a lot of St. Louis metro area in my opinion is very underwhelming on the St. Clair County Illinois side, relative to St. Louis County proper. In my experience, the wealth in the St. Louis metro is concentrated in about 5 significant suburbs, Clayton (more of an exurb or edge city on its own), Ladue, Webster Groves, Kirkwood and Chesterfield. If you drive up Hanley Road from the center of Clayton, within 2 miles you will be in one of the most destitute areas of University City you have ever seen. Similarly, in the city proper, you have the "Delmar Divide", much like Troost Street in KCMO, where you have one of the most pronounced one street instantaneous changes in character in any metro I have seen.
St. Clair County only makes up about 1/3 of the Metro East suburbs. It's also home some of the most destitute cities (ex: East St. Louis). There are nice areas in St. Clair for sure, but they're generally further east in the county than the cities that sit below the hills and bluffs near the river. Outside of St. Clair, Monroe County to St. Clair's south is much smaller, but it's growing and it has the second highest median income of all the metro St. Louis counties. Madison County to St. Clair's north is also home cities like Edwardsville which are quite desirable. There's not wealth to the same degree that you'll see in West County, but there's certainly more than the various poor and working class towns that make up a large part of St. Clair County.

As for Clayton, it's by no definition an exurb. It shares a border with St. Louis proper, and downtown Clayton is something like 8 miles from the western most section of downtown St. Louis. It's also highly integrated in with the central corridor that stretches from downtown through Midtown, the Central West End, Forest Park and its adjoining neighborhoods, right into Clayton itself.

I don't disagree that there is a rapid change in environment though. Much of North County is drastically different than West County. You can draw a line and watch people who originally fled the city into North County now fleeing into St. Charles County. The city is similar with Delmar dividing the central corridor from the northern half of the city.

Quote:
With that said, I have been in a lot of major metros, and what I am writing here about instant shifts in neighborhood safety are not that uncommon. My observation with St. Louis is that there is not as much concentrated wealth within the MSA as I have seen in other MSAs.
It sounds like you need to see more of metro St. Louis. You describe a good chunk of west St. Louis County, but many of those suburbs, including some you forgot to mention, are not only wealthy but also some of the wealthiest in the Midwest and the country as a whole. There's also a lot of stable, middle class suburbia to be found on both sides of the river outside of west St. Louis County and St. Clair County, IL. It's not just a select few wealthy areas surrounded by griping poverty.
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Old 06-04-2017, 03:06 PM
 
Location: 32°19'03.7"N 106°43'55.9"W
8,114 posts, read 17,319,771 times
Reputation: 7281
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
St. Clair County only makes up about 1/3 of the Metro East suburbs. It's also home some of the most destitute cities (ex: East St. Louis). There are nice areas in St. Clair for sure, but they're generally further east in the county than the cities that sit below the hills and bluffs near the river. Outside of St. Clair, Monroe County to St. Clair's south is much smaller, but it's growing and it has the second highest median income of all the metro St. Louis counties. Madison County to St. Clair's north is also home cities like Edwardsville which are quite desirable. There's not wealth to the same degree that you'll see in West County, but there's certainly more than the various poor and working class towns that make up a large part of St. Clair County.

As for Clayton, it's by no definition an exurb. It shares a border with St. Louis proper, and downtown Clayton is something like 8 miles from the western most section of downtown St. Louis. It's also highly integrated in with the central corridor that stretches from downtown through Midtown, the Central West End, Forest Park and its adjoining neighborhoods, right into Clayton itself.

I don't disagree that there is a rapid change in environment though. Much of North County is drastically different than West County. You can draw a line and watch people who originally fled the city into North County now fleeing into St. Charles County. The city is similar with Delmar dividing the central corridor from the northern half of the city.



It sounds like you need to see more of metro St. Louis. You describe a good chunk of west St. Louis County, but many of those suburbs, including some you forgot to mention, are not only wealthy but also some of the wealthiest in the Midwest and the country as a whole. There's also a lot of stable, middle class suburbia to be found on both sides of the river outside of west St. Louis County and St. Clair County, IL. It's not just a select few wealthy areas surrounded by griping poverty.
No doubt Ladue is among the very wealthiest. Also, I did leave out some solidly middle class towns in St. Charles County, namely O'Fallon and Wentzville, not to mention some west county towns like Fenton and Ballwin.


What I think I am guilty of is measuring these suburbs up to the area I lived most of my life in, New Jersey. There are so many more wealthy areas there, and the NYC suburb ring dwarfs that of St. Louis.
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Old 06-04-2017, 03:40 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,483 posts, read 2,222,000 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
No doubt Ladue is among the very wealthiest. Also, I did leave out some solidly middle class towns in St. Charles County, namely O'Fallon and Wentzville, not to mention some west county towns like Fenton and Ballwin.


What I think I am guilty of is measuring these suburbs up to the area I lived most of my life in, New Jersey. There are so many more wealthy areas there, and the NYC suburb ring dwarfs that of St. Louis.
I mean metro St. Louis only has 2.8 million people in its MSA, so it's going to have a lot less of everything. That being said, St. Louis' innermost suburban ring is certainly broken. It broke before it ever fully formed as well due to the state line with Illinois. West and South County are both fine, but North County has been leading the exodus into St. Charles County. This is partly why St. Charles County is the fastest growing county in the state. Over in Illinois, the desirable areas are all further inland and east from St. Louis when looking at St. Clair County.

St. Louis is somewhat similar to other river cities and Chicago in that regard. NYC really seems like it had no issues overcoming its state lines like some cities did.
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