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Old 06-20-2017, 01:26 AM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,144 posts, read 1,519,895 times
Reputation: 1848

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
One major difference between Birmingham and Atlanta is the way Atlanta has whole-heartedly embraced adaptive reuse of it's historic industrial & commercial past. This started about 25 years ago, but has exploded in the past ten years.
Um, hello? Sloss Furnaces? The Museum/Historical Landmark/Hunted House? Even still, preserving Birmingham's historic industrial past is much more complex than what you'll see in Atlanta. One, like I said before, Birmingham's economy and culture was built on it's industrial nature; most of the Mills, and Plants were either still in use, or shut down and eventually rusted away. And with the industry going through a period of decline, there was no desire (or money), to reuse or refurbish Mill/Plant Communities 4-8+ miles from the City Core.

In return you get this.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5159...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5087...7i13312!8i6656

For a better example, The Avondale Mills Co. were a group of Textile Mills that was headquartered in Avondale, Birmingham. The Birmingham building was eventually shut down in 71, and was demolished in 76. I mean even still, the plants that did survived, were also re-used as well. The Continental Gin Company was redeveloped into The Continental Gin Industrial Park (which hosts one of the largest Día de los Muertos festivals in the country); and the Dr. Pepper/Martin Biscuit Buildings were redeveloped into Pepper Place, a 7-Building, 227,000 square foot retail and office development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Birmingham has joined the bandwagon very recently though, with the new Pizitz Department Store reno and the upcoming Alabama Power Plant* project - so kudos for getting with the program.
New Pizitz Department Store? Alabama Power Plant project? You mean the Pizitz Food Hall/Apartment and the Powell Avenue Steam Plant? Well first off, the Pizitz project was going to happen anyway, especially considering it's apart of the "Downtown Revitalization" movement; trust me, it's not the first, and it won't be the last building to be refurbished and redeveloped Downtown. That itself is one of the key components for Regenerating Legacy cities...

Quote:
They identify the key elements of revitalization as:

Rebuilding the central core
Sustaining viable neighborhoods
Repurposing vacant land for new activities
Re-establishing the central economic role of the city
Using economic growth to increase community and resident well-being
Building stronger local governance and partnerships
Building stronger ties between legacy cities and their regions
All of which Birmingham has taking into consideration, in terms of growth.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,333 posts, read 10,303,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
What would you consider the prototypical Northeastern, Southeastern, Gulf Coast, Great Lakes, Great Plains, Southwestern, and West Coast cities?

Northeast: NYC (a good argument could also be made for Philly)

Southeast: I'm leaning towards Atlanta, here

Gulf Coast: I've only been to New Orleans, Houston (I think it counts) and Corpus Christi. I suspect that none are good choices

Great Lakes: I'm thinking Cleveland, though I've never visited Detroit.

Great Plains: not a clue

Southwest: very limited experience here. I recuse myself.

West Coast: LA

The Southeast would be somewhere like Birmingham, AL or Jackson, MS lol. Atlanta is more an outlier in its size.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,289 posts, read 3,506,771 times
Reputation: 4464
Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
Um, hello? Sloss Furnaces? The Museum/Historical Landmark/Hunted House? Even still, preserving Birmingham's historic industrial past is much more complex than what you'll see in Atlanta. One, like I said before, Birmingham's economy and culture was built on it's industrial nature; most of the Mills, and Plants were either still in use, or shut down and eventually rusted away. And with the industry going through a period of decline, there was no desire (or money), to reuse or refurbish Mill/Plant Communities 4-8+ miles from the City Core.
You're REALLY backpedaling now. Sloss Furnaces are not adaptive reuse - do you even understand what that means?

Um, okay. And?

Quote:
For a better example, The Avondale Mills Co. were a group of Textile Mills that was headquartered in Avondale, Birmingham. The Birmingham building was eventually shut down in 71, and was demolished in 76. I mean even still, the plants that did survived, were also re-used as well. The Continental Gin Company was redeveloped into The Continental Gin Industrial Park (which hosts one of the largest Día de los Muertos festivals in the country); and the Dr. Pepper/Martin Biscuit Buildings were redeveloped into Pepper Place, a 7-Building, 227,000 square foot retail and office development.
Totally weak excuses, and examples.


Quote:
New Pizitz Department Store? Alabama Power Plant project? You mean the Pizitz Food Hall/Apartment and the Powell Avenue Steam Plant?
I know you aren't from this region, but you are aware that Pizitz was a Department Store and that Powell Avenue was an Alabama Power facility, correct?


[quote]Well first off, the Pizitz project was going to happen anyway, especially considering it's apart of the "Downtown Revitalization" movement;[quote]

No, it was never a 'done deal.' Nothing was going on with this building for decades until Bayer Properties stepped up.

Quote:
trust me, it's not the first, and it won't be the last building to be refurbished and redeveloped Downtown. That itself is one of the key components for Regenerating Legacy cities...
I never said it was, now you're attempting to move the goalposts yet again while also putting words in my mouth.


Quote:
All of which Birmingham has taking into consideration, in terms of growth.
It's about damn time. You're a couple of decades behind Atlanta at this, but better late than ever.

Again, the only thing Rust Belt about Birmingham is the decay and it's former industrial past. Nothing more.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:16 AM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,144 posts, read 1,519,895 times
Reputation: 1848
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
You're REALLY backpedaling now. Sloss Furnaces are not adaptive reuse - do you even understand what that means?
Wait how? The Sloss Furnaces become a Haunted House every Halloween, Hosts several events from Wedding Receptions to Music Shows, and etc. You're telling me this is not a reuse? how sway?!?! stop it, you're becoming stubborn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Um, okay. And?
Um, okay??? These wastelands used to be thriving Mills/Plants. It's difficult to reuse your industrial plants when most of them were either demolished decades ago, or are still in use today (Vulcan Material, ACIPCO, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Totally weak excuses, and examples.
Are they not older Industrial Buildings that are reused? dios mio. I'm going to drops some more facts for you; you strictly said "One major difference between Birmingham and Atlanta is the way Atlanta has whole-heartedly embraced adaptive reuse of it's historic industrial & commercial past."

Last time I checked, Adaptive Reuse refers to the process of reusing an old site or building for a purpose other than which it was built or designed for. No where does it states that an older Building/Site must be redeveloped into Apartments and Lofts; the Pratt Steam Power Plant in Baltimore was converted into retail, restaurants, offices. Which is pretty much similar to the examples I listed above. Like I said, stop it, converting older industrial buildings into Lofts/Apartments aren't anything that Atlanta influences others to do, Birmingham has those too. We also have this neighborhood in NYC called, "The Meatpacking District," I don't know if you've heard of it or not, but I'm pretty sure it has become a catalyst for such Transformation Developments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
I know you aren't from this region, but you are aware that Pizitz was a Department Store and that Powell Avenue was an Alabama Power facility, correct?
Correct, I initially thought the Pizitz were previously a Loft Building. But the Powell Avenue Steam Plant was constructed by the Consolidated Electric Light & Power Company, which folded into the Birmingham Railway, Light and Power Company, then became the property of the Birmingham Electric Company, which was later Acquired by Alabama Power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
It's about damn time. You're a couple of decades behind Atlanta at this, but better late than ever.

Again, the only thing Rust Belt about Birmingham is the decay and it's former industrial past. Nothing more.
Birmingham IS a couple of decades behind Atlanta, and so are various other cities. But the thing is, Birmingham is not following down Atlanta's path of growth, and nor is it molding itself behind the similar Sunbelt-Like development patterns of Atlanta, and the rest of the Southeast. As I said before, Birmingham is trying to rebuild it's central core, Reignite it's older Urban Centers, Infill vacant lots, and etc. and this type of physical growth isn't common within the Southeast, I'd actually go further to say that Birmingham is the only Southeastern city that's gone forward with this model of growth. Five Points itself will become a known gem soon, there's no other neighborhood that's similar within the Southeast that matches it's density, diversity, and architecture.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,289 posts, read 3,506,771 times
Reputation: 4464
Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
Wait how? The Sloss Furnaces become a Haunted House every Halloween, Hosts several events from Wedding Receptions to Music Shows, and etc. You're telling me this is not a reuse? how sway?!?! stop it, you're becoming stubborn.
Special events and occasional functions are hardly adaptive re-use as we are speaking of. It's very cool that these things happen there, but no.


Quote:
Um, okay??? These wastelands used to be thriving Mills/Plants. It's difficult to reuse your industrial plants when most of them were either demolished decades ago, or are still in use today (Vulcan Material, ACIPCO, etc.)
We pulled it off with Atlantic Station. If we can transform a former steel mill into a thriving new district, so can other places.

http://atlanticstation.com/#1442423134265-72241972-3a63

Quote:
Are they not older Industrial Buildings that are reused? dios mio. I'm going to drops some more facts for you; you strictly said "One major difference between Birmingham and Atlanta is the way Atlanta has whole-heartedly embraced adaptive reuse of it's historic industrial & commercial past."

Last time I checked, Adaptive Reuse refers to the process of reusing an old site or building for a purpose other than which it was built or designed for. No where does it states that an older Building/Site must be redeveloped into Apartments and Lofts
Now you're moving the goalposts, just like I knew you would. I provided links to more mixed-use developments than strictly lofts. And since when are lofts NOT "reusing an old site or building for a purpose other than which it was built or designed for?"

Quote:
the Pratt Steam Power Plant in Baltimore was converted into retail, restaurants, offices. Which is pretty much similar to the examples I listed above.
Yes, exactly like Ponce City Market here, which I provided a link to. It's similar to Pratt, but triple the size and with a large residential component. Not sure why you're mentioning this though, as there is nothing like either development in Birmingham yet.

Quote:
Like I said, stop it, converting older industrial buildings into Lofts/Apartments aren't anything that Atlanta influences others to do, Birmingham has those too.
Sorry, but this just sounds like insecurity.

Quote:
We also have this neighborhood in NYC called, "The Meatpacking District," I don't know if you've heard of it or not, but I'm pretty sure it has become a catalyst for such Transformation Developments.
Yes, I'm very familiar with it.


Quote:
Correct, I initially thought the Pizitz were previously a Loft Building.
How could you not know this? It was one of several large Department Stores Downtown.

Quote:
But the Powell Avenue Steam Plant was constructed by the Consolidated Electric Light & Power Company, which folded into the Birmingham Railway, Light and Power Company, then became the property of the Birmingham Electric Company, which was later Acquired by Alabama Power.
Yes, exactly as I said - it's owned by Alabama Power, a division of Atlanta-based Southern Co.

The Southern Co. started as the Georgia Electric Light Co, which became Georgia Power. They provided street lights and ran the streetcar system, in case you're interested.

Again, what is your point of drilling down to the history of Powell Ave to discredit what I said about the current ownership? Was it because the idea for the redevelopment was launched, and is being directed from here?


Quote:
Birmingham IS a couple of decades behind Atlanta, and so are various other cities. But the thing is, Birmingham is not following down Atlanta's path of growth, and nor is it molding itself behind the similar Sunbelt-Like development patterns of Atlanta, and the rest of the Southeast.
LOL! I take it you haven't seen the Galleria/Riverchase area or the 280 corridor then. It's a carbon copy of what you claim Birmingham isn't emulating.

Quote:
As I said before, Birmingham is trying to rebuild it's central core, Reignite it's older Urban Centers, Infill vacant lots, and etc. and this type of physical growth isn't common within the Southeast.
What's happening right now in Downtown Birmingham is very impressive. But to claim this type of growth isn't happening in EVERY mid to large Southern city is delusional at best. It's been going on for years here, and we're increasing the level of it like you wouldn't believe.

Quote:
I'll go on to say that Birmingham is the only Southeastern city that's gone forward with this model of growth. Five Points itself will become a known gem soon, there's no other neighborhood that's similar within the Southeast that matches it's density, diversity, and architecture.
This just reminds me of the 'Fake News' we keep hearing about lately....
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:35 PM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,144 posts, read 1,519,895 times
Reputation: 1848
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
LOL! I take it you haven't seen the Galleria/Riverchase area or the 280 corridor then. It's a carbon copy of what you claim Birmingham isn't emulating.
You do know that Riverchase Galleria is in Hoover right? and that 280 goes through Birmingham, Mountain Brook, Homewood, and Hoover right? I honestly don't know what you're expecting from that area, it's a Highway that's connecting Birmingham's main suburbs. Hoover and Birmingham are going in two totally different directions, development in Birmingham is different from development in Hoover.

It's pretty obvious that Birmingham is scurrying away from the Sun-Belt type development that's common across the Southeast. Sprawling, Cliche Glass Towers,

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
What's happening right now in Downtown Birmingham is very impressive. But to claim this type of growth isn't happening in EVERY mid to large Southern city is delusional at best. It's been going on for years here, and we're increasing the level of it like you wouldn't believe.
See but that's the thing, it's not just Downtown, it's Five Points South, Downtown Ensley, Woodlawn, Avondale, Five Points West, Crestwood, Eastwood, etc. Most Sunbelt/Southeastern cities put all of their chips in one area, instead of spreading the development across the city within distinct Neighborhood Centers. See when I mentioned Urban Centers, and Infilling Vacant Lots, you thought I was referring to just the Downtown Area because Southeastern cities aren't known for various Urban Centers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
This just reminds me of the 'Fake News' we keep hearing about lately....
Urbanity, Racial Diversity, Nightlife Diversity, Various Ethnic Restaurants, Architecture Diversity, Housing Diversity (Hotels, Apartments, Houses, Condos), Various Festivals, Various Restaurants, Density, Walkability, Multiple Businesses, Young/Old, Street Performers etc. If you think that's common for a Southeastern City, I'd like to see it.

Chinese food, Indian food, Thai, Vietnamese, Italian, and etc. all in one confined neighborhood within walking distance. Housing being opened and affordable to various people, from Students, to Doctors.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Clemson, SC by way of Tyler,TX
4,853 posts, read 2,980,597 times
Reputation: 3399
Everything is bigger in Dallas. Of course the largest rodeo is actually in Houston. But they're both flat, hot, have suburban sprawl, that to me is your prototypical Texas city. Western flare as well.




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Old 06-23-2017, 03:31 PM
 
Location: South Padre Island, TX
2,452 posts, read 1,279,483 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylord_Focker View Post
Everything is bigger in Dallas. Of course the largest rodeo is actually in Houston. But they're both flat, hot, have suburban sprawl, that to me is your prototypical Texas city. Western flare as well.
The rodeo in Houston is merely a carnival that doesn't even relate to the city's historic culture; nothing remotely western about it. The rodeo is probably there only because forefathers wanted the Deep South Gulf Coast city just to fit in with the Texas stereotype, no matter how cheesy it was.

This was a real celebration that fit with the city's culture:
This is how Houston partied 100 years ago - Houston Chronicle
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,289 posts, read 3,506,771 times
Reputation: 4464
Quote:
Originally Posted by _OT View Post
You do know that Riverchase Galleria is in Hoover right? and that 280 goes through Birmingham, Mountain Brook, Homewood, and Hoover right? I honestly don't know what you're expecting from that area, it's a Highway that's connecting Birmingham's main suburbs. Hoover and Birmingham are going in two totally different directions, development in Birmingham is different from development in Hoover.
So when you think of 'Birmingham,' you consider it a totally isolated island of 212,00 people? Sorry, but no. That's totally ridiculous, as the close-in Southside suburbs are totally intertwined with the City and are directly adjacent to Five Points South & Downtown. Why do you think Homewood has a Downtown, but Pelham doesn't?

Quote:
It's pretty obvious that Birmingham is scurrying away from the Sun-Belt type development that's common across the Southeast. Sprawling, Cliche Glass Towers
No, it isn't - even without counting Hoover. What would you call the new TopGolf adjacent to Downtown? Or the new V.A. Clinic, where the parking deck is 4 times larger than the building? And glass towers usually don't sprawl, they're called 'towers' for a reason. You may not like them, but many of them are attractive, and they're usually signs of prosperity and jobs.

Quote:
See but that's the thing, it's not just Downtown, it's Five Points South, Downtown Ensley, Woodlawn, Avondale, Five Points West, Crestwood, Eastwood, etc. Most Sunbelt/Southeastern cities put all of their chips in one area, instead of spreading the development across the city within distinct Neighborhood Centers. See when I mentioned Urban Centers, and Infilling Vacant Lots, you thought I was referring to just the Downtown Area because Southeastern cities aren't known for various Urban Centers.
Birmingham hardly 'owns' this type of development in the SE, by any stretch of your imagination. And I never specified Downtown, you're moving the goalposts yet again.

It doesn't matter though, as in-fill, adaptive re-use and revitalization of old commercial districts outside of Downtown has been happening on a large scale in Atlanta for some time and is now happening on impressive scales in Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, Orlando, Tampa, Raleigh, Savannah and many mid-sized cities. And it's nothing new, but it is speeding up. If you're as well traveled as you claim you should know of all this, as it's pretty common knowledge in the region to those that do actually do get around.

Quote:
Urbanity, Racial Diversity, Nightlife Diversity, Various Ethnic Restaurants, Architecture Diversity, Housing Diversity (Hotels, Apartments, Houses, Condos), Various Festivals, Various Restaurants, Density, Walkability, Multiple Businesses, Young/Old, Street Performers etc. If you think that's common for a Southeastern City, I'd like to see it.

Chinese food, Indian food, Thai, Vietnamese, Italian, and etc. all in one confined neighborhood within walking distance. Housing being opened and affordable to various people, from Students, to Doctors.
I just....have no words, I'm just in awe of all of this! Birmingham really is the Chicago of the South.
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Old 06-24-2017, 06:08 AM
_OT
 
Location: Miami
2,144 posts, read 1,519,895 times
Reputation: 1848
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
So when you think of 'Birmingham,' you consider it a totally isolated island of 212,00 people? Sorry, but no. That's totally ridiculous, as the close-in Southside suburbs are totally intertwined with the City and are directly adjacent to Five Points South & Downtown. Why do you think Homewood has a Downtown, but Pelham doesn't?
It's not what I think, or what I don't think Birmingham is, the fact of the matter is that growth in Hoover is significantly different than growth in Birmingham, it's a reason why both cities anchor the metro area. When you're thinking of "Birmingham," everything that's tied into the culture of Birmingham, doesn't EVEN come CLOSE to matching Hoover. That's like comparing Chicago to Fort Worth, Old to New.

Homewood was developed as an established community way before Pelham, having it's own distinctiveness and identity.

"Hollywood is a former town annexed into Homewood, Alabama, in 1929. A historic district of much of the area is listed on the National Register of Historic Places as Hollywood Historic District. The district is roughly bounded by U.S. Highway 31, U.S. Highway 280, and Lakeshore Drive and is significant for the Mission Revival and Spanish Colonial Revival architectural style of surviving houses and other buildings."

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4801...7i13312!8i6656

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
No, it isn't - even without counting Hoover. What would you call the new TopGolf adjacent to Downtown? Or the new V.A. Clinic, where the parking deck is 4 times larger than the building? And glass towers usually don't sprawl, they're called 'towers' for a reason. You may not like them, but many of them are attractive, and they're usually signs of prosperity and jobs.
Well first off the new TopGolf near Downtown was TopGolf's first designated Urban Location, something that was typically different from TopGolf locations across the Southeast. And as for the VA Clinic; for one, that area is normally very congested, two, it's better than a typical parking space, which would've just increased street parking in that area.

No, those Glass Tower developments in Sunbelt/Southeastern Cities are subjected to increasing Sprawl and they're really not that attractive, they look like more Larger Office Parks. You want to see attractive Glass Towers in a more Urban Environment, travel to Toronto, Seattle, Vancouver, NYC, London, etc.

When you compare those to the one's in cities like Atlanta, Miami, Charlotte, Nashville, and etc. it's like night and day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Birmingham hardly 'owns' this type of development in the SE, by any stretch of your imagination. And I never specified Downtown, you're moving the goalposts yet again.

It doesn't matter though, as in-fill, adaptive re-use and revitalization of old commercial districts outside of Downtown has been happening on a large scale in Atlanta for some time and is now happening on impressive scales in Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, Orlando, Tampa, Raleigh, Savannah and many mid-sized cities. And it's nothing new, but it is speeding up. If you're as well traveled as you claim you should know of all this, as it's pretty common knowledge in the region to those that do actually do get around.
It's not about "owning" it, it's about Birmingham distributing the development patterns throughout it's Urban Cores. No such thing is seen within other Southeastern cities, and you know it. You're keep thinking about Commercial Districts, I'm strictly referring to Urban Centers of distinct neighborhoods.


Quote:
A local non-profit is working on a plan to help redevelop Downtown Ensley.

The Bethel Ensley Action Task (BEAT) is hoping to launch a $25 million development that would include a park and mixed-use building in Ensley. BEAT's executive director, Frank Dominic, said the group's plan will complement the city of Birmingham's $40 milllion renovation of the Ramsey-McCormick building. According to the Mayor’s office, the plan would create the first ever Public Safety Municipal Complex for the City of Birmingham pulling Municipal Court, Birmingham Police Department Administration and the Birmingham Fire and Rescue Department Administration to one location. The plan will involve public and private funding.
Quote:
The Woodlawn Foundation is continuing its work to revitalize the east Birmingham community it's named after with the opening of a child development center. In a partnership with the Woodlawn Foundation, the James Rushton I Foundation has moved its early learning center from the downtown YMCA Youth Center to a newly renovated facility in Woodlawn.
Quote:
Get a preview of what’s to come in Birmingham with a stop in the Woodlawn neighborhood. The close-knit community is experiencing a resurgence led by businesses like the concept store Open Shop and the clothing and home accessory supplier Club Duquette popping up alongside recording studios and an old-time barbershop. Before leaving for the airport just two miles north, fortify yourself at Woodlawn Cycle Cafe with a cold brew, an oxtail empanada and a buttery brioche stuffed with bacon and Harvest Roots kimchi, made in Alabama.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...m-alabama.html
I know for DAMN sure this isn't common in Orlando, Tampa, nor Jacksonville, or any other city in Florida. And I'm positive it's not common for the others as well. Ensley to the West, North Birmingham to the North, Five Points to the South, and Avondale/Woodlawn to the East.
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