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Old 06-14-2017, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I have heard before that Mitch Landrieu's father, Moon, had a half-black great grandmother, and thus the entire Landreiu family is black under the "one drop" rule.

Certainly, it's plausible. The percentage of "white" people with black DNA was found back in 2014 to be highest in Louisiana and South Carolina (around 12% of the total population, IIRC).
Not surprising, as New Orleans and Charleston both were port cities known for having a history of quite a bit of black/white mixing. Both ironically have a strong African and French influence(Catholics in N.O. and Huguenots in Charleston).
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Chicago metro
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Exactly. I live in South Florida and people always ask what I am or if I'm mixed, often assume I have at least one Hispanic parent. I tell them I'm Afro-American. They say really, you don't look like an American black. I guess to be "really black" you have to look like Wesley Snipes. People that have limited contact with the Afro-American community have no idea how phenotypically diverse the community is. I have cousins with green eyes, my mom has sandy brown hair, my dad is dark brown with straight jet black hair (people think he is Ethiopian), my wife has lose curls and stereo-typically Asian eyes (she is full black).

What I think people fail to realize is that Afro-Americans are the result of not only a large mixing of different Western African ethnicities, but also a large mix of different Western European ethnicities, all with their own unique looks.

My wife looks almost like the Fulani Woman from West Africa. Definitely not stereotypical "black features".
To be honest, even for many of those that were raised around African-Americans or are part of the group themselves have this idea of what what black features, usually consist of round or flat noses, full lips and 4b-c type hair. There is even an African American youtuber who goes by the name "Chrissie", who pretty much goes by this description as the standard of black features. To some extent, I can understand the generalization. I once attended a college that had a fair amount of West African students(mostly from Nigeria and Ghana), and I can't remember one that can be described as "light skin" or even my complexion( brown skin with some reddish hue, though have been called "light skin" before). I have heard of ethnic groups such as the Igbos and Fulani(such as the girl you posted) can have have phenotypes like that of many African Americans or even more mixed, but not what I have seen Nigerians/Ghanians in America. Also, many African-Americans who have taken the DNA test results from ancestry.com tend to be around 20-30% Nigerian in ancestry.

Here is the video from Chrissie talking about on what she defines as a black phenotype.

Last edited by Chicagoland60426; 06-14-2017 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagoland60426 View Post
I once attended a college that had a fair amount of West African students(mostly from Nigeria and Ghana), and I can't remember one that can be described as "light skin" or even my complexion( brown skin with some reddish hue, though have been called "light skin" before). I have heard of ethnic groups such as the Igbos and Fulani(such as the girl you posted) can have have phenotypes like that of many African Americans or even more mixed, but not what I have seen Nigerians/Ghanians in America. Also, many African-Americans who have taken DNA test results from ancestry.com will typically be around 20-30% Nigerian in ancestry.
Modern genetic studies have shown that the Fulani are about 25% West Eurasian, which seems to have come from mixing with a Berber-like group in North Africa. This makes total sense, because their own oral histories have them migrating from areas to the west where there are more Berbers. So similar to African-Americans, they are an admixed group. The same is true for most of the lighter-skinned groups in Africa. Either they have admixture ultimately from the Middle East (Ethiopians) from Asia (Malagasy) or are a different "race" entirely (Khoisan peoples).

A minority of Igbos do have lighter skin tones - all the way up to colors which would be defined as light skinned within the U.S. context. To the best of my knowledge this is not due to significant admixture by Western Europeans into the population - although Europeans visited coastal Africa (mostly for slave raiding of course) for over 500 years, so it's indeed possible. The little bit I have read on the matter anecdotally suggests the trait pops up randomly, with lighter-skinned children in dark families, suggesting it's the result of one or two genes. Note that due to the way skin color genetics works, it's very easy to have a mutation to diminish production of melanin (hence albinos, on the extreme end) but very hard to fix a broken gene for dark skin. The latter is why Native Americans never got much darker again after crossing the Bering Strait and moving into tropical areas. The dark skin genes had been winnowed out of the population, and even though they would have been advantageous in the tropics they had no way of getting them.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Modern genetic studies have shown that the Fulani are about 25% West Eurasian, which seems to have come from mixing with a Berber-like group in North Africa. This makes total sense, because their own oral histories have them migrating from areas to the west where there are more Berbers. So similar to African-Americans, they are an admixed group. The same is true for most of the lighter-skinned groups in Africa. Either they have admixture ultimately from the Middle East (Ethiopians) from Asia (Malagasy) or are a different "race" entirely (Khoisan peoples).

A minority of Igbos do have lighter skin tones - all the way up to colors which would be defined as light skinned within the U.S. context. To the best of my knowledge this is not due to significant admixture by Western Europeans into the population - although Europeans visited coastal Africa (mostly for slave raiding of course) for over 500 years, so it's indeed possible. The little bit I have read on the matter anecdotally suggests the trait pops up randomly, with lighter-skinned children in dark families, suggesting it's the result of one or two genes. Note that due to the way skin color genetics works, it's very easy to have a mutation to diminish production of melanin (hence albinos, on the extreme end) but very hard to fix a broken gene for dark skin. The latter is why Native Americans never got much darker again after crossing the Bering Strait and moving into tropical areas. The dark skin genes had been winnowed out of the population, and even though they would have been advantageous in the tropics they had no way of getting them.
There is also a Jewish component within the Igbo community and may also bring a "twist" in terms of genes/phenotype.

We also have to be careful in regards to white people, as not all Europeans are strictly of European DNA and this goes back centuries.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:03 AM
 
Location: New Orleans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I have heard before that Mitch Landrieu's father, Moon, had a half-black great grandmother, and thus the entire Landreiu family is black under the "one drop" rule.

Certainly, it's plausible. The percentage of "white" people with black DNA was found back in 2014 to be highest in Louisiana and South Carolina (around 12% of the total population, IIRC).
That very well could be possible, though looking at him and his parents they don't look like they have any drop of black in them. But even with that French last name, he comes from quite the mixed background, he's got some German and Italian in there, probably a few other European groups too, who knows what else. It probably depends whether his ancestors immigrated around/after the Civil War or if he descends from colonial era people where black and white mixing was more common, it seems most of his ancestors immigrated from Europe around or after the Civil War but some other stuff could have gotten mixed in there since then. But also that rumor could just be made up to either defend or make fun of the Landrieu family's history of identifying with and helping black causes.

Years and years of black and white mixing there are going to be some white people with black ancestry in them. 200 years ago you had Ocotroons and such, and that was encouraged. A few more generations down the line and that black lineage could become unknown to the family and just part of their DNA. Plus you had people like George Herriman, who went through out his life as a white man, though he came from a Creole background and he knew it, and only after his death had it come out that he was in fact "black," not like it matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Not surprising, as New Orleans and Charleston both were port cities known for having a history of quite a bit of black/white mixing. Both ironically have a strong African and French influence(Catholics in N.O. and Huguenots in Charleston).
Yes, for example, all four of New Orleans black mayors are lighter skinned to varying degrees with some obvious white ancestry and all four are Catholic. You got a large population of light skinned black people identifying as black even though they might be majority white, it would only make sense that there is also a population of white people out there with some unknown or known black heritage who identify as solely white. The history of race and racial mixing can be a bizarre one that is unknown to a lot of people, in the end, nowadays, it can just come down to how you identify yourself.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:26 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Well, speaking of Vanessa Williams and phenotypes, back when she won the Miss America pageant, it was a big deal in the Black community that a woman with European-type features was chosen. Ebony mag. published a critique of it, and they even ran their own beauty contest in response to the pageant's choice, with readers' pics and a vote. The pageant finally breaking the color barrier was not met with the applause organizers may have been expecting, if they expected anything. The issues involved went much deeper than that. Fast forward 30+ years, and some people see things differently, but that's how it was back then.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
We also have to be careful in regards to white people, as not all Europeans are strictly of European DNA and this goes back centuries.
True enough. In Europe Spaniards and especially Portuguese people have detectable levels of African ancestry - mostly under 5%, but sometimes as high as 10%. This is partially due to the Islamic era, but much of it seems to be post Islam as well. This is no surprise, because in the early modern period chattel slavery was common in Christian Portugal and Spain (as high as 10% in some Portuguese cities) but this population basically vanished due to blending into the population over the last few centuries.

Italians also have detectable levels of black ancestry in the range of a few percent. Not even just Sicilians, where it could be explained as due to Moorish occupation for a few centuries, but also portions of mainland Southern Italy which were never touched by Muslims. To the best that anyone can guess, this is a remnant of the Roman era. Some studies have suggested that all European Jews are are a few percent African as well. This isn't particularly surprising, given the modern-day Jewish population seems to have come about due to a mixing of around 300 Israelite men with Italian women during the Roman era, and Rome seems to have been pretty mixed at that time.

People from Europe north of the Mediterranean, however, generally don't have any black ancestry. There must be some in places like the UK - there were a lot of freed slaves in 19th century London, and all of them didn't move to Sierra Leone or die off without descendants - but generally speaking most people don't have this as part of their ancestry.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:29 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
although Europeans visited coastal Africa (mostly for slave raiding of course) for over 500 years, so it's indeed possible.
I think it is very unlikely that Europeans affected the gene pool in sub-Saharan Africa during the slave trading period. When the Europeans arrived in West Africa they encountered well-developed, economically powerful political organizations who weren't simply going to let Europeans run around their countries gathering people up. Furthermore, the coasts of West Africa, lacking deep water ports and buffeted by rough surf, shallow reefs, and sandbars were very treacherous.

As a result, most of the slave trade was conducted with the European ships anchored off shore and African negotiators visiting the ships in smaller boats manned by skilled local navigators who understood the conditions. Europeans rarely set foot on land even while taking hundreds of slaves on board their ships.

On top of that, the few Europeans who did try to live and trade on the mainland during the first years of the slave trade pretty much died off due to having little to no natural defense to endemic diseases like typhoid and malaria.

So due to these factors in the slave trade, European contact with the gene pool on mainland sub-Saharan Africa was negligible at best.
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:57 PM
 
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Huh?
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Old 06-14-2017, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Well, speaking of Vanessa Williams and phenotypes, back when she won the Miss America pageant, it was a big deal in the Black community that a woman with European-type features was chosen. Ebony mag. published a critique of it, and they even ran their own beauty contest in response to the pageant's choice, with readers' pics and a vote. The pageant finally breaking the color barrier was not met with the applause organizers may have been expecting, if they expected anything. The issues involved went much deeper than that. Fast forward 30+ years, and some people see things differently, but that's how it was back then.
Given that she went to college where I am from, I don't completely know about this. There was likely more of an issue with her posing for Penthouse not long after and ironically, the Runner Up who was later crowned was Suzette Charles from NJ(who is also black(and italian). So, I dare say that the results were met more with pride versus what Williams looked like.

More on these 2: Williams, Vanessa (1963- ) | The Black Past: Remembered and Reclaimed

Charles, Suzette (1963- ) | The Black Past: Remembered and Reclaimed
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