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Old 09-07-2017, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,511 posts, read 2,969,673 times
Reputation: 2737

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Some places in the Arctic circle in Siberia get averages of 85% humidity and more than 100" of snowfall each year but would count as a desert to this person because it's a "polar climate" which is apparently the exact same as a desert climate. *mind blown*

No one is going to think of Antarctica as a desert right away. What if I told you a hot dog is a sandwich? Do you forever on and tell everyone you know since a hot dog is classified as a sandwich, it must be thought of that way? Social implications of a word mean a lot more than what a definition is, as words are dynamic and change meanings all the time. We no longer speak Old English for a reason, languages change.

People aren't going to carry an encyclopedia everywhere and use that to decide what gets called what mate.

Phoenix and Tucson get about 10" of rain a year. They are barely considered a desert by precipitation levels but they are because of its local ecology and general landscape. By all technicalities it is a "subtropical desert climate". I don't see you saying the lower half of the state of Arizona doesn't count as a desert since all that matters is how much rain they get, and nothing else. Arizona and Nevada, in most of its land, are quintessential desert landscapes and scenery, NOT ANTARCTICA. THAT ISNT GOING TO CHANGE.
"To this person." Key phrase right here. There's no use "debating " with you anymore.
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:06 AM
 
Location: South Padre Island, TX
2,452 posts, read 1,277,997 times
Reputation: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Some places in the Arctic circle in Siberia get averages of 85% humidity and more than 100" of snowfall each year but would count as a desert to this person because it's a "polar climate" which is apparently the exact same as a desert climate. *mind blown*
It's pretty clear that the poster was saying that there are indeed areas in those polar zones dry enough to be classified as desert, not that the classification applied to all areas in the zones. Indeed, there are two types of Polar biomes, the Polar Desert (Ice Cap), and the Tundra. So those areas of Siberia you mention will fall into the latter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_desert

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
No one is going to think of Antarctica as a desert right away. What if I told you a hot dog is a sandwich? Do you forever on and tell everyone you know since a hot dog is classified as a sandwich, it must be thought of that way? Social implications of a word mean a lot more than what a definition is, as words are dynamic and change meanings all the time. We no longer speak Old English for a reason, languages change.

People aren't going to carry an encyclopedia everywhere and use that to decide what gets called what mate.
Your point is already clear, therefore these analogies are unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
Phoenix and Tucson get about 10" of rain a year. They are barely considered a desert by precipitation levels but they are because of its local ecology and general landscape. By all technicalities it is a "subtropical desert climate". I don't see you saying the lower half of the state of Arizona doesn't count as a desert since all that matters is how much rain they get, and nothing else. Arizona and Nevada, in most of its land, are quintessential desert landscapes and scenery, NOT ANTARCTICA. THAT ISNT GOING TO CHANGE.
That's why the factor of evapotranspiration is added to the classification of desert. With that factor, it is shown that Tuscon has a high enough rate of evaporation relative to the rainfall to be classified as desert, even if its annual 12" rainfall is higher than in typical deserts. The 8" of rainfall at Phoenix is solidly within the official desert rainfall cutoff, nothing stands out there.

The DSW may indeed be quintessential, but the fact is that desert can be found even in Antarctica. So take some deep breaths, lay off the caps, sit down, and really read this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert

Last edited by JMT; 09-08-2017 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,635,459 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texyn View Post
It's pretty clear that the poster was saying that there are indeed areas in those polar zones dry enough to be classified as desert, not that the classification applied to all areas in the zones. Indeed, there are two types of Polar biomes, the Polar Desert (Ice Cap), and the Tundra. So those areas of Siberia you mention will fall into the latter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_desert



Your point is already clear, therefore these analogies are unnecessary.



That's why the factor of evapotranspiration is added to the classification of desert. With that factor, it is shown that Tuscon has a high enough rate of evaporation relative to the rainfall to be classified as desert, even if its annual 12" rainfall is higher than in typical deserts. The 8" of rainfall at Phoenix is solidly within the official desert rainfall cutoff, nothing stands out there.

The DSW may indeed be quintessential, but the fact is that desert can be found even in Antarctica. So take some deep breaths, lay off the caps, sit down, and really read this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert
The OP said why is Arizona and Nevada associated with hot and dry (you know, the title of this thread)? Because the majority of deserts are hot and dry. I don't care about what some poster from Delaware thinks. The majority associates deserts with hot and dry, which is pretty accurate. Because most people think being in the 90s and upward for half the year or so is pretty hot weather. Deserts are also pretty dry, which you've brought up also.

The other person arguing with me randomly brings up Antarctica as it it matters here. This thread is about Nevada and Arizona, not polar climates. So if anyone is off topic or wrong it's people talking about Antarctica in a thread about the desert southwest.

Again, classifications don't matter in human perception. Classifications can change human perception but not always. Human Perception does. This thread is asking why people associate Nevada and Arizona are hot and dry deserts. This is a thread about why people view Arizona and Nevada as hot and dry. Not why Antarctica should be too, because science says so.

Last edited by JMT; 09-08-2017 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:55 PM
 
Location: DMV Area
1,004 posts, read 600,751 times
Reputation: 1867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
The OP said why is Arizona and Nevada associated with hot and dry (you know, the title of this thread)? Because the majority of deserts are hot and dry. I don't care about what some poster from Delaware thinks. The majority associates deserts with hot and dry, which is pretty accurate. Because most people think being in the 90s and upward for half the year or so is pretty hot weather. Deserts are also pretty dry, which you've brought up also.

The other person arguing with me randomly brings up Antarctica as it it matters here. This thread is about Nevada and Arizona, not polar climates. So if anyone is off topic or wrong it's people talking about Antarctica in a thread about the desert southwest.

Again, classifications don't matter in human perception. Classifications can change human perception but not always. Human Perception does. This thread is asking why people associate Nevada and Arizona are hot and dry deserts. This is a thread about why people view Arizona and Nevada as hot and dry. Not why Antarctica should be too, because science says so.
So you won't let scientific facts about Antarctica being a polar desert get in the way of you being shrill and argumentative, will you?

Last edited by JMT; 09-08-2017 at 08:50 PM..
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Tempe, AZ
4,552 posts, read 3,635,459 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by biscuit_head View Post
So you won't let scientific facts about Antarctica being a polar desert get in the way of you being shrill and argumentative, will you?
It doesn't matter, because this is about human perception, which doesn't add up to scientific facts all the time.

You wanna know why this thread is about human perception and not scientific facts? See the thread title with the word "reputation". I didn't know reputations were always based on scientific facts, am I wrong for thinking reputations are based on how people perceive things?

I wasn't aware that when to think of deserts I was supposed to think of Antarctica because it's the biggest one, not the Sahara or Mojave! Geez, who knew that I would be so wrong about the way I perceive something! Now all of society has to think of Antarctica as a desert not as an ice cap, which is very much different than the fiery hellholes that Arizona and Nevada both are! Ok guys, no one can think of Arizona and Nevada as deserts now because they are small and unimportant, Antarctica is the biggest! That should be *the* desert of Earth!

I prefer to keep the word "desert" and "polar areas" to mean very different areas of earth. Truth be told Antarctica and the Sahara share one thing and that is lack of precipitation. But in pretty much every other way they are drastically different. We should refer to them as different things for this reason, so they don't get mixed up.

Last edited by JMT; 09-08-2017 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 12:02 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,504 posts, read 17,720,777 times
Reputation: 30796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prickly Pear View Post
It doesn't matter, because this is about human perception, which doesn't add up to scientific facts all the time.
This is why there are scientific definitions. Because if we went around relying on human perception, instead of one reasonable definition of 'desert', we have 7.5 billion potential definitions.

Geographers rely on precipitation amounts to define desert, with ecological factor being supporting definers resulting in sub-classes like 'arid grasslands', 'polar desert', etc.

Is Albuquerque, New Mexico in a desert from March through October, but not from November through February just because you personally do not perceive deserts as being cold and having snow?

If you are in the hills of the Hudson Highlands in New York during a hot, dry drought July and encounter a prickly pear growing among the rocks, are you suddenly in a temporary 'desert'?
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:51 AM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
7,815 posts, read 12,319,426 times
Reputation: 4766
I think most of Arizona and Nevada DO have a hot dry summer. Areas like Lake Tahoe and Flagstaff are the exception not the rule. For example in Arizona, Phoenix, Tucson, the Grand Canyon area, the Sonoran Desert are ALL very hot and dry in the summer. The majority of Nevada, even outside Las Vegas like the Great Basin is very hot and dry. Most of Nevada and Arizona's landscape also happens to be desert, not entirely so, but there is more desert than anything else.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:35 AM
 
239 posts, read 140,177 times
Reputation: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
I think most of Arizona and Nevada DO have a hot dry summer. Areas like Lake Tahoe and Flagstaff are the exception not the rule. For example in Arizona, Phoenix, Tucson, the Grand Canyon area, the Sonoran Desert are ALL very hot and dry in the summer. The majority of Nevada, even outside Las Vegas like the Great Basin is very hot and dry. Most of Nevada and Arizona's landscape also happens to be desert, not entirely so, but there is more desert than anything else.
Exactly. The OP apparently considers most of the two states to be mild because they're cooler and wetter than the Phoenix area, which is one of the hottest places on Earth. By the standards of most people, AZ and NV are generally very hot and dry in the summer.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
5,616 posts, read 3,934,565 times
Reputation: 7912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
I think most of Arizona and Nevada DO have a hot dry summer. Areas like Lake Tahoe and Flagstaff are the exception not the rule. For example in Arizona, Phoenix, Tucson, the Grand Canyon area, the Sonoran Desert are ALL very hot and dry in the summer. The majority of Nevada, even outside Las Vegas like the Great Basin is very hot and dry. Most of Nevada and Arizona's landscape also happens to be desert, not entirely so, but there is more desert than anything else.
First off, Phoenix and Tucson are IN the Sonoran Desert, so there's that. Second, the Grand Canyon isn't exactly what I call "hot". Its warm, but not atrocious. At the Grand Canyon in the winter, its common to see low temperatures at or below zero degrees Farenheit.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:14 PM
 
47 posts, read 23,468 times
Reputation: 80
Lived in Tucson for 2 1/2 years. Don't ever remember it getting into the 70's. By 7am the pool concrete is too hot to walk on without burning your feet. It's still in the 90's at midnight. It's in the upper 80's on Christmas. It's hotter than heck. Now I also lived in the Mojave desert where it would be in the 100's during the day and would drop temps quite a bit at night. We even had snow several times in the seven years I was there.
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