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Old 07-11-2017, 05:05 PM
 
17 posts, read 8,787 times
Reputation: 56

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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Actually I still stick up for Michigan where the facts allow me to. Yes I chose to leave, but I still know the area. In fact I also have a family member in Oakland county whom I just visited on my trip to Michigan earlier in the spring. His area is very nice, lakes everywhere, and of course it is clean. I had a good visit until I got lost on his roads lol. I did not see Detroit however, really I had no reason too and my time up there is precious so I moved on to my other destinations. I was all over Michigan, my only beef was with the misery of Michigans road construction. I spent some time at tawas point, that was a beautiful place. All that being said I think you misunderstand my post if you thought I was bashing the state I grew up in. I have always been critical of the problems in a few SE Michigan cities that have hurt Michigan as a whole, and yes I'll admit the conditions and consequences of those conditions for Michigan do make me angry. Actually Detroits little brother flint has done more to embarrass Michigan lately with its water debacle. I do hope all these Detroit boosters are correct that some of that mess is being fixed, however there is decades of bad history to give me a lot of doubt. My family once lived in Detroit and I lived there as a baby. My family left decades ago as the place fell apart. My grandparents stuck it out there and thier neighborhood literally became a war zone by the late 80s. In fact I had my life threatened by a carload of locals when I drove there to visit my grandparents. I bet it's a total ruin today just like my great grandmothers neighborhood was in the 90s when I last saw it. Twenty some years ago when my grandparents were still alive they took me and my wife on a driving tour of Detroit to show her places where relatives had lived, businesses they owned etc and all that was left was either burned out shells, foundations or dangerous ghetto. I have heard stories all my life of what Detroit was when my family moved up north decades ago, and I have watched thier city ripped apart. I don't remember living there myself as I was too young, however I do know the area and have a reason I feel the way I do about it. The Michigan I loved was the lakes, the woods, the hunting and fishing etc. Despite my family connections to Detroit my life living in Michigan was alslways far from SE Michigan so I admit that I really don't know what it's like to live there as you do. I have far more experience living in western and northern Michigan. My perspective may not be popular to you but trust me when I say there are many people in western and northern Michigan who have similar sentiments. In fact it amounts to downright embarrassment every time more Detroit or Flint problems become national news or every year when that list of Americans worst cities is released again.

I hear stories similar to this all the time from older Detroiters who may have been born in Detroit, raised in the city at a young age, and whose family then moved out when the neighborhoods went bad. For the younger people on the board, keep in mind that these older former Detroit residents have an emotional attachment to a house (or former house) and neighborhood in the city. It was the place they grew up in, and which later turned to ruin. That house turning to ruin has caused some anger and resentment towards the City they formerly called home. Thus it is no wonder why many older folks have difficulty feeling like Detroit is coming back, because the neighborhood they loved and remembered is and remains long gone.

Putting your self in the shoes of someone 40 and under creates a whole different perspective. It is important to keep in mind that people 40 and younger never remember a vibrant Detroit. They just knew Detroit to be a bad place that has gotten a lot better over the last 10 years. They see the progress, without an emotional attachment to a property or neighborhood that turned bad. Thus it becomes much easier for the younger crowd to acknowledge and realize Detroit has actually turned a corner, because they are not clouded by the bad memories of loss.

Thus you have the young and optimistic, because they should be. And you also have the old and nostalgic, because they have experienced loss. And both are very valid perspectives on Detroit.
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:08 PM
 
5,458 posts, read 2,846,641 times
Reputation: 10255
Quote:
Originally Posted by carcross View Post
When predicting the "next Detroit", keep in mind the one key issue that amazingly gets overlooked by most planners and urban historians: cheaply built housing.

Think about this for a moment... as Detroit rapidly grew during the 40s and 50s, the rapid growth was fueled by industrial jobs that paid a wage decent enough that you could build your own new home... and all these new homes were needed to house the rapidly growing population. In Detroit, this was also aided by the fact that 1) Midwestern land is plentiful with few geographic barriers to contain the sprawl, and 2) in Michigan water is cheap and plentiful which means you can build your house wherever you can get land, and are not reliant on city infrastructure to bring you water. 1) and 2) basically allowed urban sprawl to spread without boundaries. However, Detroit sprawl was not just any sprawl, but it was the sprawl of cheaply built homes.

Essentially, there was no limit on supply. In many other urban areas, supply was constrained by geography, which caused housing costs to rise, which meant that only those who could afford to build nicer homes could build new. In Detroit, anybody could build new. Further, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, why would a (metro) Detroiter want to to move into a old cheap house when they could easily and cheaply build a new house. Thus the housing supply became too large, and lower income folks who could not afford to maintain a house moved into the cheap houses left over from the 40s and 50s.

And of course with Detroit being in the north where weather is not kind, the houses deteriorated without proper maintenance. This made the neighborhoods even less desirable, and eventually the poor people moved into newer houses left behind by the middle class moving into more cheaply built new houses. Long story short, Detroit has an over supply of cheaply built homes that fall apart quickly.

Thus, in picking your "new Detroit", pick a metro that has a ton of cheaply built homes. It should also be geographically unconstrained, and in a place that the weather takes a toll on the cheaply built structures. Find that metro, and you will find your new Detroit.
Las Vegas? Maybe not as bad because the sprawl happened over a much shorter time, early 90s to The Bust.
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Old 07-11-2017, 06:47 PM
 
5,556 posts, read 6,991,353 times
Reputation: 2807
Quote:
Originally Posted by cttransplant85 View Post
TThe unions and democrats played a MAJOR part in driving out the auto industry.
Thousands of people in Michigan are still employed by the auto industry.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Back in the Mitten. Formerly NC
3,819 posts, read 5,213,742 times
Reputation: 5259
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Actually I still stick up for Michigan where the facts allow me to. Yes I chose to leave, but I still know the area. In fact I also have a family member in Oakland county whom I just visited on my trip to Michigan earlier in the spring. His area is very nice, lakes everywhere, and of course it is clean. I had a good visit until I got lost on his roads lol. I did not see Detroit however, really I had no reason too and my time up there is precious so I moved on to my other destinations. I was all over Michigan, my only beef was with the misery of Michigans road construction. I spent some time at tawas point, that was a beautiful place. All that being said I think you misunderstand my post if you thought I was bashing the state I grew up in. I have always been critical of the problems in a few SE Michigan cities that have hurt Michigan as a whole, and yes I'll admit the conditions and consequences of those conditions for Michigan do make me angry. Actually Detroits little brother flint has done more to embarrass Michigan lately with its water debacle. I do hope all these Detroit boosters are correct that some of that mess is being fixed, however there is decades of bad history to give me a lot of doubt. My family once lived in Detroit and I lived there as a baby. My family left decades ago as the place fell apart. My grandparents stuck it out there and thier neighborhood literally became a war zone by the late 80s. In fact I had my life threatened by a carload of locals when I drove there to visit my grandparents. I bet it's a total ruin today just like my great grandmothers neighborhood was in the 90s when I last saw it. Twenty some years ago when my grandparents were still alive they took me and my wife on a driving tour of Detroit to show her places where relatives had lived, businesses they owned etc and all that was left was either burned out shells, foundations or dangerous ghetto. I have heard stories all my life of what Detroit was when my family moved up north decades ago, and I have watched thier city ripped apart. I don't remember living there myself as I was too young, however I do know the area and have a reason I feel the way I do about it. The Michigan I loved was the lakes, the woods, the hunting and fishing etc. Despite my family connections to Detroit my life living in Michigan was alslways far from SE Michigan so I admit that I really don't know what it's like to live there as you do. I have far more experience living in western and northern Michigan. My perspective may not be popular to you but trust me when I say there are many people in western and northern Michigan who have similar sentiments. In fact it amounts to downright embarrassment every time more Detroit or Flint problems become national news or every year when that list of Americans worst cities is released again.
Flint didn't embarrass anyone. Flint didn't choose to be poisoned by their own water. The state politicians and their appointees caused the embarrassment. Flint was just their victim.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:46 PM
 
178 posts, read 84,713 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Actually I still stick up for Michigan where the facts allow me to. Yes I chose to leave, but I still know the area. In fact I also have a family member in Oakland county whom I just visited on my trip to Michigan earlier in the spring. His area is very nice, lakes everywhere, and of course it is clean. I had a good visit until I got lost on his roads lol. I did not see Detroit however, really I had no reason too and my time up there is precious so I moved on to my other destinations. I was all over Michigan, my only beef was with the misery of Michigans road construction. I spent some time at tawas point, that was a beautiful place. All that being said I think you misunderstand my post if you thought I was bashing the state I grew up in. I have always been critical of the problems in a few SE Michigan cities that have hurt Michigan as a whole, and yes I'll admit the conditions and consequences of those conditions for Michigan do make me angry. Actually Detroits little brother flint has done more to embarrass Michigan lately with its water debacle. I do hope all these Detroit boosters are correct that some of that mess is being fixed, however there is decades of bad history to give me a lot of doubt. My family once lived in Detroit and I lived there as a baby. My family left decades ago as the place fell apart. My grandparents stuck it out there and thier neighborhood literally became a war zone by the late 80s. In fact I had my life threatened by a carload of locals when I drove there to visit my grandparents. I bet it's a total ruin today just like my great grandmothers neighborhood was in the 90s when I last saw it. Twenty some years ago when my grandparents were still alive they took me and my wife on a driving tour of Detroit to show her places where relatives had lived, businesses they owned etc and all that was left was either burned out shells, foundations or dangerous ghetto. I have heard stories all my life of what Detroit was when my family moved up north decades ago, and I have watched thier city ripped apart. I don't remember living there myself as I was too young, however I do know the area and have a reason I feel the way I do about it. The Michigan I loved was the lakes, the woods, the hunting and fishing etc. Despite my family connections to Detroit my life living in Michigan was alslways far from SE Michigan so I admit that I really don't know what it's like to live there as you do. I have far more experience living in western and northern Michigan. My perspective may not be popular to you but trust me when I say there are many people in western and northern Michigan who have similar sentiments. In fact it amounts to downright embarrassment every time more Detroit or Flint problems become national news or every year when that list of Americans worst cities is released again.
Im sorry but I just have to speak up on something some of you keep repeating .

Im not from Detroit or Michigan so I dont pretend to know the exact details which lead to its downfall(including Flint).
What I do know that the Federal and state governments should not be let off the hook.
Simply saying Flint is and embarrassment to the state when it should be the state that should be embarrassed.
Michigan is no different than New Jersey in that they have allowed these cities to become what they are.
People in this country are real quick to separate themselves but how can you live within 20 min or more of a place and not expect these problems to spread or diminish the image of the whole state?

If a family member falls on hard times,I will be there to help.If I had a brother who was a crackhead,do you not think people would wander if I have issues too?

The issues of cities failing like this is not one that we should be so quick to separate oursselves from as this affects our whole countries reputation.Its an American problem and we all should be embarrassed.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:49 PM
 
178 posts, read 84,713 times
Reputation: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by carcross View Post
I hear stories similar to this all the time from older Detroiters who may have been born in Detroit, raised in the city at a young age, and whose family then moved out when the neighborhoods went bad. For the younger people on the board, keep in mind that these older former Detroit residents have an emotional attachment to a house (or former house) and neighborhood in the city. It was the place they grew up in, and which later turned to ruin. That house turning to ruin has caused some anger and resentment towards the City they formerly called home. Thus it is no wonder why many older folks have difficulty feeling like Detroit is coming back, because the neighborhood they loved and remembered is and remains long gone.

Putting your self in the shoes of someone 40 and under creates a whole different perspective. It is important to keep in mind that people 40 and younger never remember a vibrant Detroit. They just knew Detroit to be a bad place that has gotten a lot better over the last 10 years. They see the progress, without an emotional attachment to a property or neighborhood that turned bad. Thus it becomes much easier for the younger crowd to acknowledge and realize Detroit has actually turned a corner, because they are not clouded by the bad memories of loss.

Thus you have the young and optimistic, because they should be. And you also have the old and nostalgic, because they have experienced loss. And both are very valid perspectives on Detroit.
You are so right.This is the truth everywhere.GENTRIFICATION is fueled by these optimistic types.Ive seen this attitude Fromm people who grew up in inner city Cleveland and talk about how bad it is yet they live in one of the worse neighborhoods in Atlanta that is gentrifying,
For them its a whole new experience.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:02 PM
 
178 posts, read 84,713 times
Reputation: 154
I personally think it will be Las Vegas,A cautionary tale of what it could be is Atlantic City.T
The very nature of gambling is demise,
People get hooked and they eventually loose everything but cant leave because they think they can win it back with that ONE big it,
So many people with lower education and way too many low paying service industry jobs.

All that money that flows through those casinos ad there is no subway,and half decent schools,and a high poverty rate
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:45 PM
 
171 posts, read 151,349 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakebarnes View Post
I'd be curious to know how many of the Detroit boosters live in the city (not the suburbs). I've read the Detroit forums extensively and most boosters appear to be in the suburbs for... reasons. Detroit isn't quite awesome enough for them to live in yet.
People with children generally live in the suburbs as Detroit hasn't hit family friendly yet -its still great to hang out on a day trip with your kids though. However, it does have a great deal of young people (20-30 crowd) and wealthy retirees buying up new upscale developments.
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Old 08-02-2017, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
3,145 posts, read 2,832,710 times
Reputation: 2858
A lot of inner cities are going to be hurt by the current middle class flight. Inner cities have just become too progressive with a high cost of living. What will happen when the rich and businesses start leaving for the burbs and there is no one left to pay the exorbitant taxes needed to support a socialist city?
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Old 08-02-2017, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Tampa - St. Louis
1,090 posts, read 1,629,812 times
Reputation: 1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecarebear View Post
A lot of inner cities are going to be hurt by the current middle class flight. Inner cities have just become too progressive with a high cost of living. What will happen when the rich and businesses start leaving for the burbs and there is no one left to pay the exorbitant taxes needed to support a socialist city?
1. How many American cities can you name thay are truly socialist?

2. What you described, which was described as "white flight" has already happened in a very large number of American cities

3. Many cities with high costs of living are seeing a lot of growth. Many cities with a low cost of living are in decline. It's called supply and demand.
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