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View Poll Results: Where?
New York City 16 3.10%
Greater Boston 32 6.20%
Philly 38 7.36%
DC/N. Virginia 50 9.69%
Raleigh/NC Research Triangle 32 6.20%
Austin 48 9.30%
San Francisco/Bay Area/Silicon Valley 13 2.52%
Baltimore 11 2.13%
Toronto 33 6.40%
Pittsburgh 35 6.78%
Chicago 99 19.19%
Atlanta 109 21.12%
Voters: 516. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-19-2017, 06:50 PM
 
Location: 352
5,122 posts, read 3,878,001 times
Reputation: 3491

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So to recap:

- NYC lights the ESB yellow for Amazon
- the Kansas City mayor gave 1,000 Amazon products 5 star reviews
- an Atlanta suburb is offering to de-annex land and give to Amazon, so they can incorporate the city of..."Amazon, GA"
- New Jersey just throws $7 billion of incentives out like they're at a poker table
- Tuscon drove a 20 foot cactus to the Seattle HQ
- Ottawa plugged their bid in during an NHL game
- Birmingham is putting giant Amazon boxes around town
- Michael Jordan, the GOAT, sent Bezos a letter on behalf of Charlotte

Bezos and co. are probably sitting in their penthouse office right now, reclining in their chairs with cold craft beers and Whole Foods artisan quinoa peanut butter on the table laughing at all of us.

"These fools are pulling out all the breaks..."city of Amazon?" Really? Lol, wow. Can't wait to see the looks on their faces when we give it to El Paso."

 
Old 10-19-2017, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Miami-Jax
6,312 posts, read 6,960,359 times
Reputation: 3502
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Well Philly pitched three sites it would appear (Wasn't the RFP saying to pitch just one)
No, they asked for one preferred site but said you could include many alternatives. Of course, the RFP also asked each MSA to submit one proposal but it seems like many MSAs have bids coming from multiple municipalities.
 
Old 10-19-2017, 11:13 PM
 
Location: BC Canada
831 posts, read 932,490 times
Reputation: 1119
That Toronto presentation is VERY impressive. It notes that Ontario has the highest educated workforce in the entire OECD, and amongst the tops in NA in math, business, and computer science graduates. It makes note of many different locations including the primary one downtown on the Waterfront where Google just announced it's largest Streetside Lab. It mentions all the sites and importantly points out all have excellent transit connections. Most US cities have limited transit in the downtown and next to none in the suburbs where land is cheaper. Suburban transit in Toronto is superior than 95% of American cities transit service in their downtown cores.

You want to talk "subsidy" here's one..............Amazon would save $600 million/year just in healthcare costs by being in Toronto as opposed to any US city. That alone makes NJ's $7 billion bribe seem insignificant as these are savings decade after decade and not a one time gift. Also Toronto is a very cheap place to do business with much lower corporate tax rates and a wage level that is a full 25% cheaper than any major US city and a full 40% cheaper than Boston, NY, or Seattle in US$.

Of course a very recent report they noted is an awful big deal as well...............Toronto has been ranked the safest major city in NA and the 4th safest in the world. That and a letter from Trudeau firmly attesting to our openness of immigrants and acceptance of diversity is a clear indication that anyone who gets offered a job at Amazon is automatically immediately allowed in.
 
Old 10-19-2017, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, Commonwealth of Virginia
1,609 posts, read 1,105,742 times
Reputation: 1903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Disagree with that big time. If nothing else, Philly is known for its history; I mean how could it not, being the birthplace of the United States of America? That's not small potatoes. And when you take local/pop culture into account, it's known for even more. I agree that Philly is overshadowed by NYC but to say that it essentially lacks an identity in the national consciousness is a bit silly.
Everyone in the US knows Philly: Liberty Bell, Philly Cheesesteaks, Betsy Ross, Rocky Balboa, Independence Hall/Declaration of Independence, Love Sign, Colonial Architecture, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin, The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Dawn of the Dead, The Sixth Sense, Mummer's Parade, Wanamaker Organ, Eastern State Penitentiary, Boy Meets World, Boardwalk Empire, Noam Chomsky, Philadelphia City Hall and the Curse of Billy Penn, Comcast (our overlords), Wharton School and the University of Pennsylvania, Rodin Paintings, Please Touch Museum, Mutter Museum, Rittenhouse Square, Elfreth's Alley, Solomon Guggenheim, Kevin Bacon, Dick Clark, David Lynch, Will Smith, Tina Fey, Isaac Asimov, Erykah Badu, + all the sports team, etc, etc, etc. Philadelphia is a cultural powerhouse!

The idea that Philly is some backwater town in America's conciousness is absurd. Philadelphia may be perceived as a working-class, blue collar, All-American city, but that doesn't mean it's not as widely known as Boston.
 
Old 10-19-2017, 11:25 PM
 
Location: The Pacific Northwest
6,015 posts, read 6,360,515 times
Reputation: 8281
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
That Toronto presentation is VERY impressive. It notes that Ontario has the highest educated workforce in the entire OECD, and amongst the tops in NA in math, business, and computer science graduates. It makes note of many different locations including the primary one downtown on the Waterfront where Google just announced it's largest Streetside Lab. It mentions all the sites and importantly points out all have excellent transit connections. Most US cities have limited transit in the downtown and next to none in the suburbs where land is cheaper. Suburban transit in Toronto is superior than 95% of American cities transit service in their downtown cores.

You want to talk "subsidy" here's one..............Amazon would save $600 million/year just in healthcare costs by being in Toronto as opposed to any US city. That alone makes NJ's $7 billion bribe seem insignificant as these are savings decade after decade and not a one time gift. Also Toronto is a very cheap place to do business with much lower corporate tax rates and a wage level that is a full 25% cheaper than any major US city and a full 40% cheaper than Boston, NY, or Seattle in US$.

Of course a very recent report they noted is an awful big deal as well...............Toronto has been ranked the safest major city in NA and the 4th safest in the world. That and a letter from Trudeau firmly attesting to our openness of immigrants and acceptance of diversity is a clear indication that anyone who gets offered a job at Amazon is automatically immediately allowed in.
Canada's population is less than the state of California. SFH values are over $1 million in Toronto. How can Amazon pay a livable wage that is 25% less than any US city, most of which have home values a fraction of Toronto's? To say nothing of the taxes which are far higher than anywhere in the USA.

If Amazon chooses Toronto I hope it doesn't expect American workers to relocate because I can assure you that dog ain't gonna hunt. That deal may be fine for an immigrant from elsewhere but not from the USA. The finances don't add up. It would be a primarily Canadian and/or immigrant workforce. If I worked for Amazon in Seattle making $100k and was asked to relocate to Toronto I would ask for no less than $160-175k. USD. Due to housing and taxes.

Last edited by Bluefox; 10-19-2017 at 11:55 PM..
 
Old 10-20-2017, 12:57 AM
 
615 posts, read 372,192 times
Reputation: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Canada's population is less than the state of California. SFH values are over $1 million in Toronto. How can Amazon pay a livable wage that is 25% less than any US city, most of which have home values a fraction of Toronto's? To say nothing of the taxes which are far higher than anywhere in the USA.

If Amazon chooses Toronto I hope it doesn't expect American workers to relocate because I can assure you that dog ain't gonna hunt. That deal may be fine for an immigrant from elsewhere but not from the USA. The finances don't add up. It would be a primarily Canadian and/or immigrant workforce. If I worked for Amazon in Seattle making $100k and was asked to relocate to Toronto I would ask for no less than $160-175k. USD. Due to housing and taxes.
Toronto's housing prices are in CAD.

If Amazon pays a Seattle employee 100k USD, they would need to pay a Toronto employee 125k CAD for it to be equal.

The average price of a house in Toronto is currently $746K CAD or 596k USD. For Seattle it's currently 690k USD. Prices fluctuate (Toronto is down from over 900k CAD last month) but they are comparable markets.

Toronto is a much more attractive place to live than Seattle, 160k-170k USD (200k CAD) to live in Toronto over Seattle will mean you're laughing all the way to the bank.

Corporate taxes are lower in Canada than the USA. Income taxes are very comparable (almost the same). Healthcare costs would not be a burden to Amazon.

Either way Amazon has already considered all this given they explicitly state North America in the RFP. If the above was a deal breaker, they would restrict to USA. The only city outside of the USA in North America that is a contender is Toronto. So Toronto vs. USA.
 
Old 10-20-2017, 05:50 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,113 posts, read 23,627,108 times
Reputation: 11606
And at this point in time, a pathway to Canada from the US might actually be attractive to some.
 
Old 10-20-2017, 05:57 AM
 
3,952 posts, read 3,485,687 times
Reputation: 6325
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
And at this point in time, a pathway to Canada from the US might actually be attractive to some.
Detroit?
 
Old 10-20-2017, 06:23 AM
 
Location: London, UK
3,458 posts, read 4,003,720 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy View Post
That Toronto presentation is VERY impressive. It notes that Ontario has the highest educated workforce in the entire OECD, and amongst the tops in NA in math, business, and computer science graduates. It makes note of many different locations including the primary one downtown on the Waterfront where Google just announced it's largest Streetside Lab. It mentions all the sites and importantly points out all have excellent transit connections. Most US cities have limited transit in the downtown and next to none in the suburbs where land is cheaper. Suburban transit in Toronto is superior than 95% of American cities transit service in their downtown cores.

You want to talk "subsidy" here's one..............Amazon would save $600 million/year just in healthcare costs by being in Toronto as opposed to any US city. That alone makes NJ's $7 billion bribe seem insignificant as these are savings decade after decade and not a one time gift. Also Toronto is a very cheap place to do business with much lower corporate tax rates and a wage level that is a full 25% cheaper than any major US city and a full 40% cheaper than Boston, NY, or Seattle in US$.

Of course a very recent report they noted is an awful big deal as well...............Toronto has been ranked the safest major city in NA and the 4th safest in the world. That and a letter from Trudeau firmly attesting to our openness of immigrants and acceptance of diversity is a clear indication that anyone who gets offered a job at Amazon is automatically immediately allowed in.
Pretty good bid by Toronto. The only really major let down is the embarrassingly low $30m a year for AI investment. I understand very well the barriers that are in place by the Federal government that make it almost impossible to invest in tech and science in any meaningful way, but I am really waiting on the Trudeau government to swing for the fences here and finally make a step in the right direction.

Also once Toronto makes it to the 2nd round (which I expect them to because its a real contender) an actual accountant will look at the bid and see that the healthcare and corporate tax savings are not factoring in deductions of any sort. If anyone thinks Amazon pays the full corporate tax rate, they are naive.
 
Old 10-20-2017, 06:24 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,151 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Canada's population is less than the state of California. SFH values are over $1 million in Toronto. How can Amazon pay a livable wage that is 25% less than any US city, most of which have home values a fraction of Toronto's? To say nothing of the taxes which are far higher than anywhere in the USA.

If Amazon chooses Toronto I hope it doesn't expect American workers to relocate because I can assure you that dog ain't gonna hunt. That deal may be fine for an immigrant from elsewhere but not from the USA. The finances don't add up. It would be a primarily Canadian and/or immigrant workforce. If I worked for Amazon in Seattle making $100k and was asked to relocate to Toronto I would ask for no less than $160-175k. USD. Due to housing and taxes.
Several things:

- A livable wage in Toronto is anywhere between $70,000 - $100,000, in CAD. That wage is more than adequate to qualify for a mortgage for a brand new 1-2 bedroom condo around downtown or midtown Toronto. Average rent for a 1-2 bedroom apartment is $1200-$1600 CAD in downtown Toronto, which (surprisingly) is lower than other comparable major cities such as Boston, NYC, DC, SF, etc.

- Not sure why cost of living has to be based on the prices of SFHs. Toronto has long prohibited construction of net new SFH in the city limits. There are no new SFHs for you to buy - only existing stock and they are quickly shrinking and being converted to townhouses or condos. 80% home buyers in Toronto city-proper are buyers of rowhouses, townhouses, stacked townhouses, or condos. I don't see this as a negative especially given that Amazon has a primarily millenial workforce who are more drawn to urban living and not suburban SFH communities.

- Personal income tax rates in Canada are comparable to the U.S. A person making $80,000 to $120,000 CAD a year will pay an effective tax rate of 20-25%: provincial and federal combined. The top federal income tax rate for the highest earners in America is 35%; it is 29% in Canada. The myth that "America has low income taxes" is just that - a myth. Keeping in mind that there are no Social Security deductions in Canada, no health insurance deductions (all government funded), and no prescription pharma cost in Ontario (starting in 2018 Ontario will cover 100% of prescription drug costs for all Ontario residents).

- Most U.S. tech companies like Google, FB, Oracle, Workday are already paying above-market rates for their Toronto-based workforce. Average base salary of $100,000 plus $20-40k bonus/stock option is very very common in the tech sector here. Amazon will very likely pay comparable salary rates based on your individual pay grade should they located to Toronto.

With that said, I don't think Amazon will relocate to Toronto because its largest market is still the U.S. I don't agree with a previous poster saying that it is a "very impressive" bid - Toronto submitted a respectable bid with pages of in-depth research and supporting data, but I don't think it will get the bid due to it being in another country.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 10-20-2017 at 06:47 AM..
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