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Old 09-23-2017, 02:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
but it seems cities like Providence or Minneapolis that logically had white flight due to self segregation lost similar amounts of people to Philly or Chicago.

I get that racism had something to do with it, but lots of people seem to think its was the primary driver, when it seems like it wasn't central, not saying it wasn't an important factor, but perhaps not the driving factor.
Ask yourself this. Why didnt European cities and their urban cores go to crap? I mean they still had suburbanization(not to the level of the US), but their city cores remained very healthy. Same with Austrailian cities. That's why Sydney and Melbourne have very healthy and strong urban cores today while still having massive amounts of suburbs.
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
Ask yourself this. Why didnt European cities and their urban cores go to crap? I mean they still had suburbanization(not to the level of the US), but their city cores remained very healthy. Same with Austrailian cities. That's why Sydney and Melbourne have very healthy and strong urban cores today while still having massive amounts of suburbs.
Look at the crime rates in the Europe, go look at deep farm subsidies go look at how powerful their Auto industry is. You realize the U.K. Had rationing until 1954 right? And got IMF loans in the 60s most European counties didn't have the resources to go on a suburban building boom in the 50s. Largely they were building apartment blocks.

I recognize that racism to varying degrees (extreme is Detroit's case, relatively minor in Minneapolis) played a role but I don't believe it was the primary factor. But in places like Providence the demographics of the suburbs and city up until the recent influx of immigrants (post 1990) was pretty close to the suburbs.

Last edited by btownboss4; 09-23-2017 at 03:29 PM..
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Look at the crime rates in the Europe, go look at deep farm subsidies go look at how powerful their Auto industry is. You realize the U.K. Had rationing until 1954 right? And got IMF loans in the 60s most European counties didn't have the resources to go on a suburban building boom in the 50s. Largely they were building apartment blocks.

I recognize that racism to varying degrees (extreme is Detroit's case, minor in Minneapolis) played a role but I don't believe it was the primary factor. But in places like Providence the demographics of the suburbs and city up until the recent influx of immigrants (post 1990) was pretty close to the suburbs.
Do you have information for Pawtucket, East Providence, Central Falls and Cranston? With Providence, a lot of those "suburbs" are more urban than most suburbs, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Do you have information for Pawtucket, East Providence, Central Falls and Cranston? With Providence, a lot of those "suburbs" are more urban than most suburbs, if I'm not mistaken.
Cranston is 6% Black, North Providence is 3% Black, East Providence is 5% Black, Pawtucket isn't a suburb and lost population since 1950 so I am not going to count it.

But Providence was 3% Black when it started losing population, and 9% Black when it bottomed out in 1980. So how can you attribute that population loss to "white flight" motivated by racism?

Last edited by btownboss4; 09-23-2017 at 03:34 PM..
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Alaska
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I think you're a little confused, metro Detroit hasn't lost regional population it has gains today actually.

I think it's kind of obvious what white flight did to cities across the country. The new found power with cars allowed people to live very far away from city centers in a way that it has never been before in history.
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
I understand there was redlining and thing that stopped black people from moving into the suburbs, but I'm not so sure individual racism was the prime contributor to suburbanization like some urban activists claim, because cities that were as white as the suburbs people were moving too still lost 30% or so of their population.
It's complicated of course. I personally witnessed aggressive white flight from the Kensington-Bailey neighborhood of Buffalo in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Up thru the late 1970s, Bailey Avenue business district was basically 100% white-owned businesses and customers, bordering the University at Buffalo to the north, and majority-black neighborhoods further south. The business people I dealt with were very racist toward black customers, one shop owner carried a whistle that he blew when he didn't like the look of some black people when they came in, several Italian and Greek shop owners would speak derisively of black customers - loudly - in their native languages. A diner owner would wield a large kitchen knife when black men walked in, just to scare them away. This was around 1979. I only knew of one business that welcomed black customers, a men's shop that's still in business today.

When a few black people began purchasing homes in the neighborhood, it was literally like a tsunami of sales from the south toward the north as nearly every single home was put on the market, and the neighborhood went from 100% white (1979) to nearly 100% black by 1981. For a time, as I recall, the city tried to make it illegal to place for sale signs on lawns, in order to discourage panic selling - on many blocks there were dozens of for sale signs in what had been extremely stable neighborhoods. The homeowners were trying to sell before their home values "decreased" as a result of their neighborhood having black people move in. The homeowner may not feel that they were being racist, but it was racism overall that resulted in the panic selling and perceived loss of value that followed the arrival of black neighbors. But, many people certainly just did not want to have black neighbors.

As the neighborhood "changed" many of the businesses closed as suburban customers no longer wanted to shop in the neighborhood, and local customers could not make up the difference.

Racism may not have been the predominant contributor to the growth of the suburbs, but it was definitely a predominant factor in white flight and the end results.
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
It's complicated of course. I personally witnessed aggressive white flight from the Kensington-Bailey neighborhood of Buffalo in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Up thru the late 1970s, Bailey Avenue business district was basically 100% white-owned businesses and customers, bordering the University at Buffalo to the north, and majority-black neighborhoods further south. The business people I dealt with were very racist toward black customers, one shop owner carried a whistle that he blew when he didn't like the look of some black people when they came in, several Italian and Greek shop owners would speak derisively of black customers - loudly - in their native languages. A diner owner would wield a large kitchen knife when black men walked in, just to scare them away. This was around 1979. I only knew of one business that welcomed black customers, a men's shop that's still in business today.

When a few black people began purchasing homes in the neighborhood, it was literally like a tsunami of sales from the south toward the north as nearly every single home was put on the market, and the neighborhood went from 100% white (1979) to nearly 100% black by 1981. For a time, as I recall, the city tried to make it illegal to place for sale signs on lawns, in order to discourage panic selling - on many blocks there were dozens of for sale signs in what had been extremely stable neighborhoods. The homeowners were trying to sell before their home values "decreased" as a result of their neighborhood having black people move in. The homeowner may not feel that they were being racist, but it was racism overall that resulted in the panic selling and perceived loss of value that followed the arrival of black neighbors. But, many people certainly just did not want to have black neighbors.

As the neighborhood "changed" many of the businesses closed as suburban customers no longer wanted to shop in the neighborhood, and local customers could not make up the difference.

Racism may not have been the predominant contributor to the growth of the suburbs, but it was definitely a predominant factor in white flight and the end results.
That is exactly what happened in Richmond California, but it started in the early 50's. Realtors formed a group and held meetings to agree which neighborhoods they would "keep white", blacks were never shown houses in those neighborhoods. Some realtors didn't stick to the script and sold houses to blacks and then announced it to people living in the neighborhood creating panic selling and allowing them to turn a quick profit. In the early 50's the city core was almost 100% white, by 1960 it was 60% black. As a kid I remember my friends and relatives packing up and moving, one after another. They didn't move far just a few miles to new white only subdivisions.
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Old 09-23-2017, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
It's complicated of course. I personally witnessed aggressive white flight from the Kensington-Bailey neighborhood of Buffalo in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Up thru the late 1970s, Bailey Avenue business district was basically 100% white-owned businesses and customers, bordering the University at Buffalo to the north, and majority-black neighborhoods further south. The business people I dealt with were very racist toward black customers, one shop owner carried a whistle that he blew when he didn't like the look of some black people when they came in, several Italian and Greek shop owners would speak derisively of black customers - loudly - in their native languages. A diner owner would wield a large kitchen knife when black men walked in, just to scare them away. This was around 1979. I only knew of one business that welcomed black customers, a men's shop that's still in business today.

When a few black people began purchasing homes in the neighborhood, it was literally like a tsunami of sales from the south toward the north as nearly every single home was put on the market, and the neighborhood went from 100% white (1979) to nearly 100% black by 1981. For a time, as I recall, the city tried to make it illegal to place for sale signs on lawns, in order to discourage panic selling - on many blocks there were dozens of for sale signs in what had been extremely stable neighborhoods. The homeowners were trying to sell before their home values "decreased" as a result of their neighborhood having black people move in. The homeowner may not feel that they were being racist, but it was racism overall that resulted in the panic selling and perceived loss of value that followed the arrival of black neighbors. But, many people certainly just did not want to have black neighbors.

As the neighborhood "changed" many of the businesses closed as suburban customers no longer wanted to shop in the neighborhood, and local customers could not make up the difference.

Racism may not have been the predominant contributor to the growth of the suburbs, but it was definitely a predominant factor in white flight and the end results.
Wow that's insane.

I guess it really depends on the city. Because particularly in New England that didn't really happen, but the Urban areas still lost huge amounts of their tax base. Boston had some white flight after the Bussing Riots but the majority of the movement happened prior to 1976, and Providence never had the Black population do drive that sort of exodus.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Alaska
19 posts, read 15,607 times
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It really is disgusting and shameful how the United States let this kind of behavior and segregation run wild, governments and business all boosted and allowed white flight to happen. Real estate agents would literally come out in vans and go door to door encouraging people to put their home up for sale while instilling fears of "changing demographics". The practice was called block busting and it's illegal today, these people did so much damage, not to mention the redlining and all the awful things the banks did.

It's impossible to exaggerate the racism that led to so many problems in America, how it dictates almost everything that happened to this country and how we live today.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Alaska
19 posts, read 15,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Wow that's insane.

I guess it really depends on the city. Because particularly in New England that didn't really happen, but the Urban areas still lost huge amounts of their tax base. Boston had some white flight after the Bussing Riots but the majority of the movement happened prior to 1976, and Providence never had the Black population do drive that sort of exodus.
I'm not sure why you think you can say such things. Boston has a reputation for being an extremely racist city, and it still is very much so today.
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