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Old 09-26-2017, 08:31 AM
 
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Its because comparing city limits becomes almost meaningless with the trend of many cities in the sunbelt and corn belt annexing much of their suburbs. At that point you are not comparing similar things at all.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:55 AM
 
Location: ATLANTA
2,129 posts, read 1,427,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
I understand there are many cases where you'd want to compare metro area, however it seems like a lot of people on General US and City vs City don't acknowledge city proper at all.

I live in New York, on Long Island. I am close to NYC and am very familiar with it.

The NYC metro contains Suffolk County for instance. As soon as you leave NYC limits there is an immediate change of vibe, and vice versa, but by the time you're in Suffolk County it's a different world pretty much. Riverhead, NY has pretty much nothing in common with anywhere in NYC limits.

Philadelphia also seems similar in this regard, just several miles outside of city limits it kind of felt like I was in the middle of nowhere, granted there are also Philly suburbs which are more urban.

I totally get your point and sometimes I do feel that way but I also get the distinction very well. It seems in the Northeast and Midwest, Cities like Chicago, Philly & New York, especially being older Million Cities hold a lot more weight on their own in the inner Cities and tend to separate it's self from it's Suburbs way more often than Sunbelt Cities of the South say like Atlanta and for good reason. Their is a Major Major distinction from those Cities & Suburbs even in physical features or nature. When your in the City of Chicago or New York, you know your in the City, very Urban and Dense. Same is true for the Burbs which feel like the suburbs. The burbs are even pretty green and feel like something you would even see down South in many cases. There are exceptions of course like say a Chester, PA. A city like Atlanta on the other hand does not hold that kind of Population or Density in the Inner City not to Mention you would easily find spacious green and even rural area's with in the inner City that you would easily find in the Suburbs. In many cases you could never tell a difference. Most cases Claiming the suburbs as the City makes it look or seem bigger in that respect plus its a big economic connection between the two. Me personally look at a city like Atlanta in a different light. I see the City of Atlanta, East Point, College Park, and Decatur, inner ring burbs as Inner City or boroughs of sorts, while all else are true suburbs. That's just me of course...
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:22 AM
 
2,006 posts, read 1,015,925 times
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I get this thread, and have opinions. Some cities proper, are small in population, while the suburbs lend millions to the MSA. Minneapolis is an example. There is the city core, which is only 400,000 people, yet the MSA is 3.5 million. Of course, we all know this includes St. Paul, as well. This is the case with most MSA population numbers, though...this is just an example. I'm not a big fan of such a small core, and such a big suburban population, though. I would rather see the numbers more equal.

Boundaries are what they are, though. It's just when areas lying miles out are annexed, I think it falsely inflates the population numbers. Attached is a link, that ranks cities by their MSA density. It's interesting, to see cities with a large population, inflated by suburbia, rank quite low. Those, I would guess, are the cities that like to annex to grow population, or maybe some cities have another reason for doing this. Either way, I prefer density (MSA and city proper).

The 50 densest American metropolitan areas, by weighted density - Austin Contrarian
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:39 AM
 
Location: ATLANTA
2,129 posts, read 1,427,616 times
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Originally Posted by Enean View Post
I get this thread, and have opinions. Some cities proper, are small in population, while the suburbs lend millions to the MSA. Minneapolis is an example. There is the city core, which is only 400,000 people, yet the MSA is 3.5 million. Of course, we all know this includes St. Paul, as well. This is the case with most MSA population numbers, though...this is just an example. I'm not a big fan of such a small core, and such a big suburban population, though. I would rather see the numbers more equal.

Boundaries are what they are, though. It's just when areas lying miles out are annexed, I think it falsely inflates the population numbers. Attached is a link, that ranks cities by their MSA density. It's interesting, to see cities with a large population, inflated by suburbia, rank quite low. Those, I would guess, are the cities that like to annex to grow population, or maybe some cities have another reason for doing this. Either way, I prefer density (MSA and city proper).

The 50 densest American metropolitan areas, by weighted density - Austin Contrarian



Now I have to Totally Agree with you on this... Atlanta does this quite well, so much so I don't see it on the list, so I get your point... Correct me if I'm wrong... " A Thousand Suburbs, a Cow, a Chicken, a Barn, Tractor and a Plow in search of a City!!! "
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Montreal/Miami/Toronto
975 posts, read 633,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
I understand there are many cases where you'd want to compare metro area, however it seems like a lot of people on General US and City vs City don't acknowledge city proper at all.

I live in New York, on Long Island. I am close to NYC and am very familiar with it.

The NYC metro contains Suffolk County for instance. As soon as you leave NYC limits there is an immediate change of vibe, and vice versa, but by the time you're in Suffolk County it's a different world pretty much. Riverhead, NY has pretty much nothing in common with anywhere in NYC limits.

Philadelphia also seems similar in this regard, just several miles outside of city limits it kind of felt like I was in the middle of nowhere, granted there are also Philly suburbs which are more urban.

I feel the same way, I like comparing legal jurisdictions. It's not my problem that cities chose small city limits and cause of that you "can't" compare. Obviously, you can, it's just people mainly in the U.S (no offence) like to boast and think bigger = better, so when they talk about a city, they lump in the entire CSA. It's especially hard to compare U.S cities to others because, in U.S, they'll lump anything together in a region. For example, if I wanted to compare a Canadian city (let's pick T.O and MTL) to a U.S one but used U.S metrics, T.O would use the entire golden horseshoe region, and MTL will end up combining Ottawa/Gatineau and south all the way to the border between Quebec/Vermont. Hell, I'll even include Burlington since many people from there and MTL work and travel between both cities daily. But for me, if I talk or compare cities, I talk about their legal jurisdictions and only include surroundings if they pay taxes to the city centre, share services and have to vote for the same mayor as city A. If it's a separate entity then it's a different city.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:18 AM
 
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Dejesus, I disagree. Americans don't go with CSAs because "bigger is better"-they usually go with MSA, because they make more sense than city limits or CSA. Generally, only a few people go by CSA: those from the Bay Area, the D.C. MSA, or Boston. Otherwise, whether it is news articles or people on this website, people go for MSA or city peppers, since the latter tends to have more data.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:22 AM
 
7,698 posts, read 4,557,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parhe View Post
Dejesus, I disagree. Americans don't go with CSAs because "bigger is better"-they usually go with MSA, because they make more sense than city limits or CSA. Generally, only a few people go by CSA: those from the Bay Area, the D.C. MSA, or Boston. Otherwise, whether it is news articles or people on this website, people go for MSA or city peppers, since the latter tends to have more data.
I donít think people in DC really go by CSA. Certainly no one in Baltimore dowes. Maybe some people live in between do because they donít want to admit that they commute from the Baltimore suburbs. DC/Baltimore CSA is popular on this site, because it makes DC seem like a peer of bigger metros.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:24 AM
 
1,829 posts, read 1,250,388 times
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Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I donít think people in DC really go by CSA. Certainly no one in Baltimore dowes. Maybe some people live in between do because they donít want to admit that they commute from the Baltimore suburbs. DC/Baltimore CSA is popular on this site, because it makes DC seem like a peer of bigger metros.
That's what I mean. Some people on this site from the "DC MSA" like to go by CSA, likely because they feel it makes their home seem more important. But then you have people in Baltimore who argue otherwise.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:47 AM
 
3,955 posts, read 3,489,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djesus007 View Post
I feel the same way, I like comparing legal jurisdictions. It's not my problem that cities chose small city limits and cause of that you "can't" compare. Obviously, you can, it's just people mainly in the U.S (no offence) like to boast and think bigger = better, so when they talk about a city, they lump in the entire CSA. It's especially hard to compare U.S cities to others because, in U.S, they'll lump anything together in a region. For example, if I wanted to compare a Canadian city (let's pick T.O and MTL) to a U.S one but used U.S metrics, T.O would use the entire golden horseshoe region, and MTL will end up combining Ottawa/Gatineau and south all the way to the border between Quebec/Vermont. Hell, I'll even include Burlington since many people from there and MTL work and travel between both cities daily. But for me, if I talk or compare cities, I talk about their legal jurisdictions and only include surroundings if they pay taxes to the city centre, share services and have to vote for the same mayor as city A. If it's a separate entity then it's a different city.
The bolded sentence is where I would challenge this. The notion that a city "chooses" to maintain small borders is somewhat intellectually dishonest. Annexation first and foremost is dictated by state laws, not local flavor. Secondly most of the cities that "choose" to stay small were walled in by suburban cities legally incorporating to prevent annexation by the more powerful core municipality. This during the period of decentralization and white flight. This made it all but impossible for them to expand. This largely taking place prior to the explosion of the sunbelt cities which did not experience decentralization, and were largely able to expand at will on unincorporated land.

To make the assertion that a core city should be judged only by it's legal jursdiction, and that an adjacent suburb is of equal value in comparison isn't logical. The suburban city would not exist if not for the core's existence. Warren Michigan did not become a legal entity inspite of Detroit, it became a legal entity to spite Detroit!

Last edited by mjlo; 09-26-2017 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:12 PM
 
29,893 posts, read 27,345,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parhe View Post
That's what I mean. Some people on this site from the "DC MSA" like to go by CSA, likely because they feel it makes their home seem more important. But then you have people in Baltimore who argue otherwise.
I don't see many DC folks here primarily using the CSA.
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