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Unread 07-09-2011, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Here. Not...there.....
701 posts, read 443,989 times
Reputation: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by steel03 View Post
But that's just not true. Your experience may be "a great deal of reality," as you put it, but it also doesn't tell the whole story, since you yourself say that you haven't been to every part of the Midwest. Your entire argument seems to be based on limited experience. So it's fine if you say that the parts of the Midwest you've been to are less diverse than the South, but it's just silly to go any further than that because you DON'T have experience to inform you
Your opinion.

Nevertheless, I DO have the experience, because I LIVED in the midwest for many years, and have done a great deal of travelling. Primarily within the Central Midwest (I specified this.) It just isn't as diverse as where I am now. I did make an exception regarding Chicago.

Experience is a great part of reality.

Quote:
The Twin Cities and Chicago are extremely diverse.
yes and if you read my posts, steel, I stated this.

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I went to elementary school in MSP and there were almost 50 nationalities represented in the school. We had an International Festival every year. I had friends from Japan, Malaysia, Namibia, Australia, Laos, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Egypt, China, and Somalia.

Little-known fact: Des Moines has huge Bosnian and Sudanese populations. At my graduation, I sat next to a kid whose father was killed in the Sudanese Civil War.
I'm not dismissing your experience. However it doesn't change mines nor does it make it "limited". Having worked up there (and spent some time in school), it was not as racially diverse as it is here. I didn't see much difference in the other states that I have been to in the midwest.

Last edited by Queen Palm; 07-10-2011 at 12:04 AM..
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Unread 07-10-2011, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Iowa
1,140 posts, read 721,420 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Palm View Post
I'm not dismissing your experience. However it doesn't change mines nor does it make it "limited". Having worked up there (and spent some time in school), it was not as racially diverse as it is here. I didn't see much difference in the other states that I have been to in the midwest.
But you've proven in your posts here that your experience is limited:

Quote:
What I saw and experienced, wasn't much diversity in the midwest. Particularly with those cities that I mentioned, with the exception of Chicago. I haven't been in the Twin Cities (would love to visit one day). So I don't know how things are way up there.
You keep going on about how all of what we're saying is our opinion, but you are making your judgements and forming your opinions based on only *partial* experience. You can't make a valid point if you start with "what I saw and experienced," because that implies that your only source is your own observations, and so much more goes on in life than what YOU personally witness.

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Let me clarify a bit: Having lived in and traveled the Central Midwest, is what I'm comparing to the South (or SE Texas where I live now). I've been to Dallas, and Atlanta as well. From what I've seen and experienced, far more diverse down here, and faaar less segregated. Far less. Like night and day. Alot more culture, as well.
Here again. Your experience is with the Central Midwest, not the Midwest as a whole; therefore, your experience is limited. Incidentally, since you said you lived in St. Louis, I'm just going to point out that St. Louis is probably the most southern-like city in the Midwest, along with maybe Cincinnati. Missouri feels more like the South than the Midwest in a lot of areas.

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I can only go by what I experienced, Bydand. It doesn't make it less valid or untrue, simply because my experience differs from your's.
No, of course not. It's perfectly fine for you to use your experience and observations to help inform your opinions, but only to help inform them. Since you've proven that you do have limited experience (and you really can't contest that, I'm sorry. I have limited experience with the South, I won't deny it), you need to take into consideration what other people are saying. Just because you haven't seen how diverse downtown MSP is doesn't make it not diverse and it certainly doesn't mean that its diversity doesn't factor into the diversity of the Midwest as a whole.

I'm not trying to imply that you can't use your experience to help form your opinions, but you need to be willing to use other people's experience as well.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 02:25 AM
 
Location: Here. Not...there.....
701 posts, read 443,989 times
Reputation: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by steel03 View Post
But you've proven in your posts here that your experience is limited:
No, it is not limited.

Quote:
You keep going on about how all of what we're saying is our opinion,
But it is your opinion.

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but you are making your judgements and forming your opinions based on only *partial* experience.
I'm not making any judgements. Nor are my experiences "partial". That is your opinion. It's not as though I'd never been anywhere near there, and was saying this.

I was there. I lived there. I travelled thru it. This is what I know to be true, because I saw it. On the job, in the marketplaces, the churches, schools, downtown, the games, the restaurants, the malls, amusement park, the museum. There just was a lack of diversity overall.


Quote:
You can't make a valid point if you start with "what I saw and experienced," because that implies that your only source is your own observations,....
But I can make a valid point. My experiences are very much real and valid. Because I love to see and be around a diverse mix of people, it was something that just didn't happen much at all up there, Not like it is down here. It just wasn't the same. It was too racially polarized.

People don't have to agree with me. But I can very much contribute a valid point, because I can base it on real life encounters. Others in response to my statements have posted their experiences. Wouldn't their's be their only source as well?

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and so much more goes on in life than what YOU personally witness.
yes, and based on what goes on in life, real life, (not life according to City-Data), is how I can, without hesitation, state on here what I know is true.

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Here again. Your experience is with the Central Midwest, not the Midwest as a whole; therefore, your experience is limited.
No, it's not. A great chunk of the midwest I've been in. What I saw in St. Louis, was the same in other cities in the midwest. Chicago being the exception.

Quote:
Incidentally, since you said you lived in St. Louis, I'm just going to point out that St. Louis is probably the most southern-like city in the Midwest, along with maybe Cincinnati. Missouri feels more like the South than the Midwest in a lot of areas.
In what way? I've heard people say that, but it didn't feel like the South to me.

Quote:
No, of course not. It's perfectly fine for you to use your experience and observations to help inform your opinions, but only to help inform them.
Since you've proven that you do have limited experience (and you really can't contest that, I'm sorry.
I can contest it. I am contesting it. It isn't limited. You're just in denial, about the lack of diversity up there, that's all.

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I have limited experience with the South, I won't deny it),
but you are denying that the South is more racially diverse.

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you need to take into consideration what other people are saying.
I've considered what they're saying. As they should consider what I'm saying as well. Including you.

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Just because you haven't seen how diverse downtown MSP is doesn't make it not diverse
I didn't say that it wasn't diverse in MSP. But it being diverse doesn't mean other cities in the region are as diverse (again Chicago being the exception).

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and it certainly doesn't mean that its diversity doesn't factor into the diversity of the Midwest as a whole.
unfortunately it doesn't. Chicago is about aprox 300-400 miles from St. Louis. Chicago is faaaaaaaaar more diverse than St. Louis. In fact, it doesn't even feel like it's in the Midwest. That's how much it contrasts to much of the rest of the region., esp STL. Chicago's diversity has not reverberated in and around the central region. That's unfortunate.

Quote:
I'm not trying to imply that you can't use your experience to help form your opinions,
experience is a very valid element in life. You know that. Only on this forum, because what I say is in contrast to your and a couple of others' opinion, is it being diminished. Any other time, you deem it valid. Such as is the case you made regarding your experience in elementary school. Such was the case with Bydand (although he/she has not at this point, divulged their's).

You shared an experience that I believe to be very valid. It has been taken into consideration. But because I saw a consistancy in the lack of diversity when I lived up there for many years, and based on my experiences, having travelled in and around and thru it, with all due respect, your's has no real significant bearing.

If I believed in my heart that the midwest is as or more diverse than the South, I would have no problems stating that. But it's simply not the case. the level of diversity up North, is far less than that down here.

Quote:
but you need to be willing to use other people's experience as well.
and others like yourself need to be willing to use/see those mine's as well.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Iowa
1,140 posts, read 721,420 times
Reputation: 1206
Okay, you are actually being a tool about this, so maybe we should try a more direct approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Palm View Post
No, it is not limited.
Well, actually it is. What do you think limited means? By your own admission, you haven't been to all parts of the Midwest. You haven't been to MSP. One of the biggest (and most diverse) cities in the Midwest. That makes your experience limited. Sorry. Like it or not. That's what it means.



Quote:
But it is your opinion.
Not denying that.



Quote:
I'm not making any judgements. Nor are my experiences "partial". That is your opinion. It's not as though I'd never been anywhere near there, and was saying this.

I was there. I lived there. I travelled thru it. This is what I know to be true, because I saw it. On the job, in the marketplaces, the churches, schools, downtown, the games, the restaurants, the malls, amusement park, the museum. There just was a lack of diversity overall.
Um, yeah, IN THE PLACES YOU WERE. How can you not understand that that doesn't mean the entire Midwest is that way? What a sweeping generalization! As for amusement parks... Maybe you didn't know that two the amusement parks that are consistently rated the best in the world are in the Midwest (Cedar Point in Ohio and Holiday World in Indiana). Or that all of the major amusement parks in the South outside of Orlando and Tampa are owned by the same second-rate company (Six Flags).

Quote:
But I can make a valid point. My experiences are very much real and valid.
Of course they are! Did you even read what I wrote? Of course they're "real and valid," but that only means they provide an accurate picture of what you saw, not what every single part of the region is like all the time! Your making a generalization, just like if I were to say that people named Tom are annoying just because every person I've met named Tom happens to have been annoying.

Quote:
Because I love to see and be around a diverse mix of people, it was something that just didn't happen much at all up there, Not like it is down here. It just wasn't the same. It was too racially polarized.
I don't know where you saw this, but I've never experienced anything like racial polarization anywhere in the Midwest. Certainly not in Chicago or MSP. I could *maybe* see it happening in Kansas City or (even more *maybe*) St. Louis. Maybe.

Quote:
People don't have to agree with me. But I can very much contribute a valid point, because I can base it on real life encounters. Others in response to my statements have posted their experiences. Wouldn't their's be their only source as well?
Yes, of course you can, but you aren't listening. It's fine if you say "in my experience, the Midwest has been this way," but only if you don't let that mean, "the Midwest is this way because it has been this way in my experience." Do you not understand how those are two different things?



[/quote]yes, and based on what goes on in life, real life, (not life according to City-Data), is how I can, without hesitation, state on here what I know is true.[quote]
Oh my GOD! It's like you can't separate subjective and objective reality! You say it's your opinion, so WHY are you saying it's true? It's your opinion! That makes not objectively true! It might be accurate based on what you've seen and in some ways overall, but the simple fact that it is your opinion means that by its very nature, it is not true.


Quote:
No, it's not. A great chunk of the midwest I've been in. What I saw in St. Louis, was the same in other cities in the midwest. Chicago being the exception.
What cities? You keep bringing up St. Louis. What other cities do you have real, legitimate experience in? MSP? Indianapolis? Milwaukee? Madison? Sioux Falls? Des Moines? Iowa City? Cleveland? Cincinnati? Columbus? Kansas City? Omaha? Lincoln? Fargo? Detroit? There's quite a lot more to the Midwest than just St. Louis.



Quote:
In what way? I've heard people say that, but it didn't feel like the South to me.
Well it certainly doesn't feel like most of the Midwest, that's for sure. It's like a mix of Midwest and South, similar to Cincinnati. Missouri just has a more southern attitude than the rest of the region. There are more southern accents, the rural areas. It's just a border state, that's all.



Quote:
I can contest it. I am contesting it. It isn't limited. You're just in denial, about the lack of diversity up there, that's all.
Let me just post this list of the nationalities of my elementary friends again: Japan, Malaysia, Namibia, Australia, Laos, Kazakhstan, South Korea, Egypt, China, and Somalia. There were also families from Russia, Poland, Thailand, Taiwan, Tanzania, Brazil, and Kenya. That I can think of. Explain to me how that isn't diverse.



Quote:
but you are denying that the South is more racially diverse.
I am not. I never said that. I don't have enough information to form an opinion.



Quote:
I've considered what they're saying. As they should consider what I'm saying as well. Including you.
I have. We have. But "you should I should" is not an argument worth having ever. That will just lead to nuh-uh/uh-huh/nuh-uh/uh-huh forever.



Quote:
I didn't say that it wasn't diverse in MSP. But it being diverse doesn't mean other cities in the region are as diverse (again Chicago being the exception).
Maybe not quite as diverse, but they certainly are diverse! Ever been to Madison? How about LGBT acceptance in Iowa City? Or my points about the big Bosnian and Sudanese (and also Vietnamese) populations in Des Moines? It's not polarized, I assure you, it's very much celebrated, and it's led to a surprisingly huge array of really good cuisine.



Quote:
unfortunately it doesn't. Chicago is about aprox 300-400 miles from St. Louis. Chicago is faaaaaaaaar more diverse than St. Louis. In fact, it doesn't even feel like it's in the Midwest. That's how much it contrasts to much of the rest of the region., esp STL. Chicago's diversity has not reverberated in and around the central region. That's unfortunate.
BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT if all you have experience with is the central region! Which is much more southern than the upper midwest! St. Louis feels a lot more like New Orleans than Chicago and Madison feels a lot more like Chicago than St. Louis.



Quote:
experience is a very valid element in life. You know that. Only on this forum, because what I say is in contrast to your and a couple of others' opinion, is it being diminished. Any other time, you deem it valid. Such as is the case you made regarding your experience in elementary school. Such was the case with Bydand (although he/she has not at this point, divulged their's).
But my experience in elementary school holds true with what everyone else is saying. None of your experiences do. It's got to stand that test if you want it to be a valid point.

Quote:
You shared an experience that I believe to be very valid. It has been taken into consideration. But because I saw a consistancy in the lack of diversity when I lived up there for many years, and based on my experiences, having travelled in and around and thru it, with all due respect, your's has no real significant bearing.
You still have only mentioned St. Louis specifically. Where else? What other real experience do you have? Not just stopping in a city for lunch.

Quote:
If I believed in my heart that the midwest is as or more diverse than the South, I would have no problems stating that. But it's simply not the case. the level of diversity up North, is far less than that down here.
And it's fine if you think that, but you need to know that you're missing out on some pretty important factors.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 10:15 AM
 
1 posts, read 861 times
Reputation: 10
Chill out. All we have here are people's personal experiences, which while interesting, are not inherently valid or actually representative. All we can do is realize that these are personal experiences are not hard facts, and that they can be influenced by many things.

Like the other person said, I would like to see some hard data about ethnic populations.

That said, from my personal experience I found more diversity in the midwest. Of course, a lot of that is due to the fact that my family is French/Polish/German on my mothers side and Guyanese on my fathers. That led me to spend a lot of time with the large guyanese, indian, and polish populations in Mpls, as well as the large Hmong population. Now that I moved, I see a lot less cultural diversity on a day to day basis.

Of course I can only base this on the experiences I have had living in these places, and compared to the MANY towns in the U.S is not much experience at all.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,163 posts, read 19,494,564 times
Reputation: 16061
QueenPalm, you are saying (over and over and over) your experience is NOT limited, right? So what you are saying is that you have been to ALL states that make up the Midwest, visited for at least a few days in every major city in every Midwestern state, and have traveled extensively in each of those states so you can comment on the rural areas and smaller cities and towns as well? You have also done the same for EVERY State that makes up the South as well I would presume. If not, then your experience IS limited, vastly limited.

Before you ask, yes I have done this in ALL of the Midwestern AND Southern states. I HAVE done this and consider my personal experiences as a narrow view of those areas. THAT is why statistics and numbers mean more than "experience." A person may very well visit/live in areas and NOT get a picture of the REAL reality of said area.

I doubt you will understand the point being made, so far you haven't grasp ANYTHING, anyone has said in this thread. I'll post no more responses to your childish posts because you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are either unwilling or unable to grasp the simple concept others have been trying to point out.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,531 posts, read 5,088,290 times
Reputation: 2195
I thought we agreed that the South had more RACIAL diversity, and the Midwest had more ETHNIC diversity? Why are we still talking (and why are you antagonizing things again, Queen Palm)?
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Unread 07-10-2011, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
12,586 posts, read 12,662,518 times
Reputation: 4514
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowincal11 View Post
Dallas is 42% Hispanic. Out of 1.2 million, that's approx. 504,000.

Chicago is 29% Hispanic. Out of 2.7 million, that's approx. 785,000. Even subtracting out the Puerto Rican population of about 100,000 and assuming 100% of Dallas's Hispanic population is Mexican, Chicago still wins that one by 185,000ish.
I thought you were going by metropolitan population. Where Dallas becomes comparable.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 03:42 PM
 
Location: St. Louie
709 posts, read 676,114 times
Reputation: 750
Chicago is not 300-400 miles away from St. Louis. More like 280 miles. St. Louis also feels nothing like New Orleans, definitely more like Chicago and other Midwestern cities. Chicago is also probably one of the most racially polarized cities in the country.
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Unread 07-10-2011, 04:15 PM
 
1,806 posts, read 1,636,935 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
I thought you were going by metropolitan population. Where Dallas becomes comparable.
Even then, Dallas/FTW Metroplex is 6 million of which 23% are Hispanic. So that's about 1.3 million.

Chicagoland is about 10 million in the 9 country area and approx. 1.7 million Hispanics.

As a percentage Dallas Metroplex has a higher Hispanic population, but numerically Chicago wins even if you take out the Puerto Rican population.
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